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Message: <blockquote data-quote="DrSpunj" data-source="post: 1577722" data-attributes="member: 994">We've essentially done that. There are really two House Rules here. The first is to combine Hide & Move Silently into Sneak (more on that below answering your post). The second is combining Listen, Scent, Blindsense & Tremorsense and any other non-visual sense into the Sense skill in such a way that any creature with at least one of those gets a chance to use the skill, while those with more than one are rewarded appropriately for having multiple senses to bring to bear on the opposed check (and none of them are now automatic within a certain distance).I absolutely agree as it's how I rule it IMC. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f609.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=";)" title="Wink    ;)"  data-smilie="2"data-shortname=";)" /> I just wasn't under the impression my ruling may be at odds with the RAW and was looking for some clarification.I think we're just going to have to agree to disagree about buying up Sneak as a cross-class skill. To us it's a feature, to you it's a bug. And your game must see substantially more multiclassing than we see in our games as doing so to increase the maximum rank cap just isn't worth the cost in most cases unless it gets you closer to your character concept!.By dipping into Bard, Monk, Ranger or Rogue for a single level Casters are pushing off their next level of spells, Fighters push off their next feat, Barbarians their Rages, etc. If it's worth dipping into one of those 4 classes because of the other class abilities they grant with a single level plus the maximum rank cap then...well, that's what multiclassing is for, isn't it? To get closer to your character concept? Without a classless generation system you have to add up the advantages and disadvantages of taking on a new class. I'll grant you that if you like being Sneaky then that's another plus at a mitigated cost for dipping into one of those 4 classes, but it's hardly enough reason to justify doing so on its own.I don't see it exactly that way. It does make Sneak more attractive but the current system basically sets you up for failure even without special senses involved. Under the Core RAW if you want to sneak up to someone that has the potential to both hear & see you then you have to make both a Hide check and a Move Silently check while they get both a Listen check & Spot check. That's 4 chances for you to get caught (as a very low roll on either of yours or a very high roll on either of theirs is usually enough to foil the attempt). And that's even taking into account the massive discrepancy in skill bonuses a dedicated stealth PC has over schmucks; dealing with someone even somewhat competent in Spot or Listen and even average rolls can lead to failure.Under our House Rule you are only making a single opposed check (the dichotomy you take about later on). You only have to make a single Sneak check (and advantage as you've already outlined since you only have to improve a single skill instead of two) and they only get to make a single detector check to oppose your attempt! However, they do get a couple advantages; namely they get to choose whether to oppose your Sneak check with their Sense or their Spot check (likely using their best), and because you are bringing both skills to bear on the situation you get a flat +2 bonus to represent sense synergy.This is more a problem with the rules regarding Multiclassing and Maximum Skill Ranks than purely a problem with combining H/MS into Sneak. I concede that it does make Sneak look more attractive, and therefore multiclassing into one of these 4 classes more attractive, but we haven't seen the "everybody wants to be Sneaky" syndrome erupt in our game with this system in place. Is the potential there? Sure, but potential != abuse by a long shot, at least not in our game. YMMV. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f609.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=";)" title="Wink    ;)"  data-smilie="2"data-shortname=";)" />And ours maintains that when the opposed roll is made. At most you get a flat +2 bonus on the detection side which is very little when stacked up against those massive bonuses you were quoting for most dedicated Sneaky types in your earlier post.It's true that someone could max Sense/Listen instead of Spot, but Barbarians & Bards are already forced to do that under the RAW. It's true that Druids, Monks, Rangers & Rogues could focus on Sense or Spot rather than both, but this is still also possible under the RAW wrt Listen & Spot. Those reasons aside you yourself have listed a number of situations where only a Sense/Listen or Spot check may be made, so keeping both at ranks if possible is always worthwhile.Unless your Familiar can talk, and even before then you must decide what type of information is transferred through an Empathic Link. A sense of alarm because something unknown is within the 30' Scent range (60' if downwind) is often enough of a clue to spoil an ambush around a corner. It's only a Move Action at that point for the Animal to figure out the direction of the scent even if there are several potential directions an attack could come from.And if you have an Animal Companion your DM had better be describing the uneasiness of that companion when/if something unknown and potentially hostile gets within 30' of its nose. How many times in fiction and movies are the horses, dogs, whatever the first things to sense something isn't right? Even the packhorse or donkey you have to haul your loot is enough in this case to tell you something isn't right (though IMC I ask for Handle Animal checks if it's not an Animal Companion or Familiar to pick-up on the fact that the animal is skiddish for some reason).Now, I know being within 30' is often more than close enough to spring the ambush, but Nail's plans for many of our foes have been spoiled completely by our Druid's Viper and my previous Halfling Paladin's Riding Dog when moving from one area to another inside or underground. That situation occuring over and over again was what prompted the revision of Listen, Scent, Blindsense & Tremorsense into the Sense skill.Thanks!DrSpunj</blockquote>

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