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Hide and Mv Silently skills are no more!
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<blockquote data-quote="Al" data-source="post: 1579285" data-attributes="member: 2486"><p><img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile :)" data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" /> </p><p></p><p> </p><p></p><p>Arguable. It is perfectly rational for a stealth-based fighter for take a level in ranger, and this is an added incentive. However, the other view is of course that characters who was multiclassed in any case have essentially gotten twice as many skill points with regard to stealth. For popular archetypes such as the rogue/wizard and the fighter/rogue this is a substantial boost, particularly in the latter case.</p><p></p><p> </p><p></p><p>Under the new system, of course, the payment for cross-class skills would be equivalent to the payment for class skills under the current one, i.e. 2 skill points to advance Stealth per ranks (vis-a-vis paying 1 x 2 for Hide and Move Silently).</p><p></p><p> </p><p></p><p>Does this not have an internal contradiction with your earlier arguments? You successfully argued, and I indeed conceded this point, that the +1sp is a trivial difference in terms of creating 'super-rogues' who are talented in every sphere. The effective addition of +1sp merely enables them to take Escape Artist. You do later admit that "just a bit more wiggle-room" is the upshot- surely just awarding +1sp achieve this just as well, if there really is a problem (which, personally, I don't see).</p><p></p><p> </p><p></p><p>The second part I see no problem with, and whilst I am not going to adopt it for my campaign, I would argue is co-equal with the RAW in terms of ease of use, balance and flavour. It's the first which I have the problem with: and note that most of the supposed problems with the RAW are solved by the latter.</p><p></p><p> </p><p></p><p>Ah, clear blue water <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile :)" data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" /> . Fundamentally, I think that this evinces a different opinion on the likelihood of the success of stealth at the higher levels. The discrepancy between the stealth PC and the schmucks is, indeed, phenomenal, and by the mid-to-high levels the advantages over one with a cross-class skill are also discernible. </p><p></p><p>However, the arguments sound good on paper, but numerically speaking, a 10th level rogue with 22 Dex (16 base + 2 level + 4 item), maximum Hide and Move Silently ranks and +5 stealth items has a +24 to those skills, easily enough to beat schmucks 100% of the time under the RAW. Against cross-class skill buyer, with a +2 Wisdom modifier (reasonable- only clerics and possibly paladins are going to have a significantly higher modifier), with his total +8, the rogue's chances of victory are still huge: just over <strong>97%</strong> . It is only against a dedicated 'detection' characters with max class skill ranks and 18 Wisdom (realistically, only a ranger) that the rogue is likely to be detected, and the rogue still has a 64.8% chance of victory. The stealth-based character is heavily favoured, particularly by mid-to-high levels when stealth-boosting items are common.</p><p></p><p>Under the revised system, the %s are the following: 100%, 96.25% (ironically, the +2 synergy bonus means that the detector actually gets a marginal advantage) and 74%. In real terms, therefore, the effect is insignificant. The change is therefore unnecessary.</p><p></p><p>Re: familiars and animal companions. Not only does Scent only work within 30', but only one character is warned. And in any case, it is better to fold Scent into a separate set of House Rules, without tinkering with Hide and Move Silently.</p><p></p><p>Detailed analysis of the numerical breakdown shows that, and I was marginally surprised with the results, the practical %s of detection remain roughly constant, though there is a slight advantage under this system against opponents with similar detection skills to your stealth skills. However, the major impact is halving the cost of stealth, and whilst this makes only a slight difference to the skill-point-heavy rogue, to purchasers of cross-class skills, particularly fighters and wizards with relatively few expendable skill points, it is hugely attractive - to the point where multiclassing becomes actively more attractive to get max class ranks. For already multiclassed characters, this is a phenomenal boon.</p><p></p><p>Essentially, the nub of this question is: is stealth too difficult under the current system? I'd say clearly not. The prevalence of stealth-boosting items and spells, the tendency to have a higher Dex than the detector's Wis and the notion that many opponents will be clearly inferior due to being bound with cross-class skills (which they may not even buy), means that stealth is already powerful enough under the RAW. The change is therefore unnecessary, although there is room for altering the mechanics of the "automatic detectors".</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Al, post: 1579285, member: 2486"] :) Arguable. It is perfectly rational for a stealth-based fighter for take a level in ranger, and this is an added incentive. However, the other view is of course that characters who was multiclassed in any case have essentially gotten twice as many skill points with regard to stealth. For popular archetypes such as the rogue/wizard and the fighter/rogue this is a substantial boost, particularly in the latter case. Under the new system, of course, the payment for cross-class skills would be equivalent to the payment for class skills under the current one, i.e. 2 skill points to advance Stealth per ranks (vis-a-vis paying 1 x 2 for Hide and Move Silently). Does this not have an internal contradiction with your earlier arguments? You successfully argued, and I indeed conceded this point, that the +1sp is a trivial difference in terms of creating 'super-rogues' who are talented in every sphere. The effective addition of +1sp merely enables them to take Escape Artist. You do later admit that "just a bit more wiggle-room" is the upshot- surely just awarding +1sp achieve this just as well, if there really is a problem (which, personally, I don't see). The second part I see no problem with, and whilst I am not going to adopt it for my campaign, I would argue is co-equal with the RAW in terms of ease of use, balance and flavour. It's the first which I have the problem with: and note that most of the supposed problems with the RAW are solved by the latter. Ah, clear blue water :) . Fundamentally, I think that this evinces a different opinion on the likelihood of the success of stealth at the higher levels. The discrepancy between the stealth PC and the schmucks is, indeed, phenomenal, and by the mid-to-high levels the advantages over one with a cross-class skill are also discernible. However, the arguments sound good on paper, but numerically speaking, a 10th level rogue with 22 Dex (16 base + 2 level + 4 item), maximum Hide and Move Silently ranks and +5 stealth items has a +24 to those skills, easily enough to beat schmucks 100% of the time under the RAW. Against cross-class skill buyer, with a +2 Wisdom modifier (reasonable- only clerics and possibly paladins are going to have a significantly higher modifier), with his total +8, the rogue's chances of victory are still huge: just over [B]97%[/B] . It is only against a dedicated 'detection' characters with max class skill ranks and 18 Wisdom (realistically, only a ranger) that the rogue is likely to be detected, and the rogue still has a 64.8% chance of victory. The stealth-based character is heavily favoured, particularly by mid-to-high levels when stealth-boosting items are common. Under the revised system, the %s are the following: 100%, 96.25% (ironically, the +2 synergy bonus means that the detector actually gets a marginal advantage) and 74%. In real terms, therefore, the effect is insignificant. The change is therefore unnecessary. Re: familiars and animal companions. Not only does Scent only work within 30', but only one character is warned. And in any case, it is better to fold Scent into a separate set of House Rules, without tinkering with Hide and Move Silently. Detailed analysis of the numerical breakdown shows that, and I was marginally surprised with the results, the practical %s of detection remain roughly constant, though there is a slight advantage under this system against opponents with similar detection skills to your stealth skills. However, the major impact is halving the cost of stealth, and whilst this makes only a slight difference to the skill-point-heavy rogue, to purchasers of cross-class skills, particularly fighters and wizards with relatively few expendable skill points, it is hugely attractive - to the point where multiclassing becomes actively more attractive to get max class ranks. For already multiclassed characters, this is a phenomenal boon. Essentially, the nub of this question is: is stealth too difficult under the current system? I'd say clearly not. The prevalence of stealth-boosting items and spells, the tendency to have a higher Dex than the detector's Wis and the notion that many opponents will be clearly inferior due to being bound with cross-class skills (which they may not even buy), means that stealth is already powerful enough under the RAW. The change is therefore unnecessary, although there is room for altering the mechanics of the "automatic detectors". [/QUOTE]
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