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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Nail" data-source="post: 1591933" data-attributes="member: 224">True enough, but then the obvious question is: How often do you do the one without the other?  I doubt that, as you try to sneak up on someone, you stamp your feet loudly as you try to remain unseen (unlike your example below).   ...or that you move without sound while in plain view of the guard.Face it: You've been duped by the legacy of the D&D system.   Now, I'm not saying that you *can't* do one without the other.  I'm just saying that *most* of the time you do both at the same time....and it's a hassle to keep them separate skills and rolls.Moreover (here's an important point, I'll wager), most people forget to use them together, as you demonstrate below:Then you've used the skills incorrectly, I'm afraid.  Any time the rogue tried to "sneak around", he would have had to roll both Hide and Move Silently, as he can be detected with either.  I'm sorry, but the reason you rolled both so infrequently is probably because you were in error.Either that, or your Rogue never tried to sneak around.  Which, although a poor example to Thieves everywhere, is possible, I suppose.  <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f609.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=";)" title="Wink    ;)"  data-smilie="2"data-shortname=";)" />An excellent example!  Your example being: the rogue is trying to sneak up on the orc.  Surely that's not a rare occurence?You've put the shoe on the wrong foot, I'm afraid.  <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />  Once again, you're being lead astray by the legacy of the system, and missing the larger point.When sneaking, it's the rogue's job to do whatever possible to pull it off.  Presumably, if he had such boots surgically attached to his feat (that is: unremovable), he would do his best to not use his feet while sneaking --- I'm being serious!  Stop laughing!   <img src="http://www.enworld.org/forum/images/smilies/laugh.png"  class="smilie" loading="lazy" alt=":lol:" title="Laughing    :lol:" data-shortname=":lol:" />   So he'd crawl, wiggle, etc.....and really, it's not necessary to go into details of how it's done.  The point is, this makes it more difficult to sneak, so the DM would apply some penalty to the poor Rogue's Sneak check.  Simple enough.And the current designers of the RAW would agree with you.  (Shrug)  Personally, a combined Sneak skill makes more sense, so we've used it.  It's simple, it stream-lines the system, it makes high-level rogue sneaking more viable, it allows Rogues a bit more skill point flexibility....what's not to like?   <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f609.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=";)" title="Wink    ;)"  data-smilie="2"data-shortname=";)" /></blockquote>

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