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<blockquote data-quote="Stormrunner" data-source="post: 1526272" data-attributes="member: 13471">Sorry, guys, but I have to agree with Sejs.&nbsp; HiPS merely removes the need to have cover or concealment, it doesn't negate the -20 penalty.However...Normally, you cannot hide while being observed.&nbsp; You have to break the observer's line-of-sight, either by ducking behind cover or concealment, using a smoke/flash bomb, or yelling &quot;Wow, look at that!&quot; and rolling high on a Bluff check.&nbsp; <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile&nbsp; &nbsp; :)"&nbsp; data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />&nbsp; The last two impose a -10 penalty, and there must be a hiding place within 1 foot per point of Hide skill.&nbsp; The shadowdancer requirement that there be a shadow within 10 feet implies the ability is similar to the &quot;distraction hide&quot;.&nbsp; (OTOH, the ranger version doesn't require ANY hiding place within 10', but does insist that the character be &quot;in natural terrain&quot;, so it seems to be more a matter of camouflage.)The way I've always played it is:&nbsp; The -20 penalty assumes that you're being careful not to rustle any leaves, etc.&nbsp; If you make the roll at -20, your arrow came zipping out of nowhere and whacked them, they don't know exactly from where (though they can probably tell it came &quot;from the left&quot; or whatever).&nbsp; If you fail the roll, you made enough movement/noise to give away your position.The shadowdancer says &quot;I don't care, I have HiPS&quot;.&nbsp; He pops up, shoots, then uses a move action to &quot;fade into the shadows&quot; at no penalty.&nbsp; Fair enough - but he's just spent his entire round attacking, then hiding.&nbsp; The foe now knows what square he's in, so they can shoot back (with the 50% miss penalty for an invisible target), drop area spells on his location, etc.&nbsp; If he bothers to take the -20 like a mere mortal, then the enemy doesn't know his exact square and can't shoot him (unless they guess lucky).</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Stormrunner, post: 1526272, member: 13471"] Sorry, guys, but I have to agree with Sejs. HiPS merely removes the need to have cover or concealment, it doesn't negate the -20 penalty. However... Normally, you cannot hide while being observed. You have to break the observer's line-of-sight, either by ducking behind cover or concealment, using a smoke/flash bomb, or yelling "Wow, look at that!" and rolling high on a Bluff check. :) The last two impose a -10 penalty, and there must be a hiding place within 1 foot per point of Hide skill. The shadowdancer requirement that there be a shadow within 10 feet implies the ability is similar to the "distraction hide". (OTOH, the ranger version doesn't require ANY hiding place within 10', but does insist that the character be "in natural terrain", so it seems to be more a matter of camouflage.) The way I've always played it is: The -20 penalty assumes that you're being careful not to rustle any leaves, etc. If you make the roll at -20, your arrow came zipping out of nowhere and whacked them, they don't know exactly from where (though they can probably tell it came "from the left" or whatever). If you fail the roll, you made enough movement/noise to give away your position. The shadowdancer says "I don't care, I have HiPS". He pops up, shoots, then uses a move action to "fade into the shadows" at no penalty. Fair enough - but he's just spent his entire round attacking, then hiding. The foe now knows what square he's in, so they can shoot back (with the 50% miss penalty for an invisible target), drop area spells on his location, etc. If he bothers to take the -20 like a mere mortal, then the enemy doesn't know his exact square and can't shoot him (unless they guess lucky). [/QUOTE]

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