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Message: <blockquote data-quote="lPeregrine" data-source="post: 1530037" data-attributes="member: 19191">Ok, as the "friend" who started this whole debate, I guess it's my duty to post my thoughts on this subject. First, I blame the authors for poorly wording a generic case into one that can be interperted to be the only option. It just makes no sense that characters with enhanced hiding skills/feats/etc are banned from using them effectively. I imagine the idea of a stealthy sniper simply wasn't a priority for the rules authors, so the rules for it didn't get much attention. That said, here's my case for removing the -20 penalty:1) As I said earlier, movement is the single hardest thing to conceal (assuming you're not wearing bright orange clothes). Notice the exact wording of the rule: "You take a –20 penalty on your Hide check to conceal yourself after the shot." Meaning the -20 penalty is because you have to quickly reconceal yourself before anyone spots you. Not only do you have the motion of trying to dive back to cover, but you have to hide very quickly. A shadowdancer's hide in plain sight ability makes it possible to "hide" without actually moving. So why should the same penalty apply for an action that is much easier to conceal and requires much less effort?2) The "sniping" application of the hide skill is a generic ability that any character can use. In most cases, hiding requires cover that a character can not shoot through. So to shoot from cover and get back to that cover to hide would require Shot on the Run to provide the two move actions. The sniping application is just an option to allow shooting from cover (otherwise impossible) without designing a character around the concept. There is no reason (other than poor wording) that a character can not snipe using another method.3) A 7th/8th level wizard or sorcerer (same as level 1 shadowdancer) can "hide in plain sight" and attack freely with Greater Invisibility, getting both defensive bonuses and denying their opponents their dex bonus to defense. It makes no sense that a character built around the concept of stealthy sniping is significantly weaker at their primary skill.4) (in reply to Thikket's 2nd case) In both cases you would get a sneak attack bonus. The sequence of events:-In some previous round, sucessfully hide.-Make ranged attack. At the moment the arrow is released, the target is unaware of the attack and is a valid target for a sneak attack.-Decide whether to hide or not (and any other actions), affecting all future actions.What happens after the attack is made does not change the target's ability to defend themselves at the moment of the attack. Even if you completely abandon hiding by making the attack, it's far too late to defend against an arrow that has already hit the target or a sword that has already removed your head. Sneak attack ability has to be based on the situation at the moment the attack is started.And in any case, note the exact wording: then immediately hide again". Your hiding is lost no matter which action you take. The only difference is what (if anything) you do to regain it after the attack.</blockquote>

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