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Message: <blockquote data-quote="N'raac" data-source="post: 6048368" data-attributes="member: 6681948">The description of the class should, in my view, drive the mechanics.  The mechanics are not a goal unto themselves, but a means of bringing the envisioned character abilities to life.Explain to me, when I make my movie with a Pathfinder Shadowdancer, precisely what I show on the screen when the Shadowdancer uses HiPS.  "Make an opposed roll, if successful he can't see you" does not create any kind of interesting and entertaining simulation of the source material.  We clearly disagree on the relevance of that simulation, simply evidenced by dismissal of the "fluff" by that simple nomenclature.The disappearing Shadowmancer seems suspicious no matter how it is accomplished.  The drawing out of shadowstuff to provide concealment no more or less so than "now you see him, now you don't".And that is the failing of the description - it provides a mechanic lacking in context.  It is that context that enables the ability to be arbitrated and administered.I also note that there is no requirement that there be anything to hide behind to use Stealth.  Rather, getting behind something allows you to remove yourself from direct observation, permitting stealth to be used.  One use of Stealth is to sneak up behind someone, or even sneak past them - do you hide behind something throughout that process?As I said, enough to paint an evocative picture of the ability in action. I posit that it is the ability to use those shadows for concealment which causes the power to work.  Some other suggestions have also been made which seem interesting as well.  Tell me what my character sees - not "you can no longer see that guy", but what happened.  "He just vanished" is not, to me, evocative of the Shadowdancer as a manipulator of shadows.  If his powers do not evoke that feel, then the purpose of this special prestige class has failed.HiPS does not let you STAY hidden - it lets you begin using Stealth without the usual requirement of being unobserved, finding cover or distracting the observer.If it said darkvision negates (or does not negate) this ability, then we would not be several pages into a discussion of whether it appropriately would do so, would we?He is no longer using the supernatural ability - HiPS only allows him to use Stealth when he otherwise could not have done so due to being observed. Having made the Stealth roll, he is now using Stealth.  Let us assume he crept behind his adversaries before the anti-magic shield was created.  He remains in bright light.  Do his adversaries detect him automatically, or must they defeat his Stealth with Perception?  Again, HiPS allowed him to avoid the prohibition against using stealth while observed.  He is now using stealth normally.  Once he is concealed by stealth, he is no longer being observed.  What you describe sounds a lot more like Invisibility than Stealth, at least to me.Does a shadow under a table mean there is a dimly lit area?  What if the shadow is cast by a small housecat?  We have no basis for assessing how large any given shadow, or dimly lit area, needs to be.  For me, I want to know HOW the ability works.  Why not create a spell called "Create Damage".  You cast it, and any target within, say, 200' takes 2-5 points of damage, plus another 2-5 per 2 caster levels, maximum 5x 2-5.  Why even bother writing a Magic Missile spell - no need to define any of the magic's special effects since all that matters is the mechanic.Fair enough.  Here again, the ability has been defined in some manner.  I don't see this as being as consistent with the command of shadows/weave together the shadows to become half-seen artists of deception, but it's miles better than "well he just does".</blockquote>

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