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Message: <blockquote data-quote="N'raac" data-source="post: 6048721" data-attributes="member: 6681948">If HiPS created an invisibility effect, rather than an ability to use Stealth, I would be more inclined to agree.  I concur with your assessment that HiPS allows the Shadowdancer to break the viewer's line of sight, thus removing the direct observation which would otherwise prevent use of Stealth.  However, if it removes this by placing shadows that Darkvision can typically penetrate in the way, then there is no reason that the Darkvision user would be prevented from continuing that direct observation, preventing Stealth, any more than being 50' away would allow a character now in total darkness to use Stealth to hide from an opponent with 60' Darkvision.  Again, we come back to how the Shadowdancer ability functions to assess how that ability interacts with Darkvision.No, the mechanics define how use of the ability is resolved in game.  The mechanics of HiPS do not say "the character becomes undetectable".  They say Technically, the rules say the stealth skill can be used even when observed, and does not actually link that to being within 10' of dim light.  To me, the second sentence mitigates that by adding the clarification that the Shadowdancer can "hide herself from view" - not fade from sight, or become invisible, but hide herself, and the caveat that this requires dim light within 10 feet.  Finally, it is stated that the shadowdancer cannot hide in her own shadow.To me, the ability is poorly phrased.  I don't think your own shadow is dim light.  It is a shadow.  The ability would certainly benefit from being better defined, as the extent of debate on this subject makes clear.  That better definition would assist in assessing the impact of Darkvision (ideally resolving the issue explicitly), exactly what the Shadowdancer does to achieve this result (fade from view, cloud men's minds, manipulate the stuff of shadows), perhaps whether shadows, rather than just dim light, are of assistance, what dim light means in view of the low light vision issue, whether there is a requirement to move, or to use an action since   The only example of stealth not combined with movement is the Sniping action, which does require a move action.As it is written right now, it allows Stealth to be used even if the user is under direct observation.  If Darkvision would otherwise defeat that Stealth, then HiPS will not change that.  HiPS only allows you to use Stealth in a condition where Stealth is not normally effective.Again, this comes back to what the Shadowdancer is using to , which seems an inherently contradictory statement.  Someone suggested this ability is a victim of poor editing in the past.  I have to agree.Here we go again...No reference to any need for cover or concealment. Still no reference to cover or concealment being required. Section on size modifiers omitted.Here we finally see cover or concealment mentioned.  It is in the context of negating being observed preventing you from using stealth.  Getting to cover or concealment, or distracting the observer, gives you the opportunity to use Stealth, effectively negating that direct observation. "Usually" does not mean "always".Can't hide behind the other guy.  OK.  Improved cover (not quoted) provides a bonus.  Again, "usually" is not "always". Sounds more like "invisible" than Stealth to me.  Thinking on that, why does HiPS allow a Shadowdancer who is being directly observed by a bat-like race's sonar to use Stealth?  I would suggest it does not - the assumption is that he is directly being observed by sight, and dim light, shadows or even fading entirely from view would not prevent that sonar continuing to register the fellow.  Yet, by strict RAW, sonar is baffled by this ability.  More evidence it needs fleshing out and interpretation.  Anyway... Once you have made successful use of Stealth, you are no longer being observed.  You have evaded observation.  All HiPS does is gets you out of being observed so you can use your Stealth.  Now, perhaps this comes back to "stealth is typically used with movement", so the actual affect should be the shadows reaching out to engulf the Shadowdancer and, when they clear, he is gone.  The shadows allow use of Stealth, which the wise Shadowdancer would use to move to an area where he can use Stealth normally.  The fact that he has been removed from direct observation allows him the opportunity to use his Stealth, but if he just stays where he was standing before, it won't do him much good.  Still a further elaboration on the words of HiPS, but also the fact that   The more I see this, the more it implies stealth without movement requires a separate action.Here we come to the question posed below - what does low light vision do?  Or, more to the point, is this dim illumination from the perspective of:(a)   The character using Stealth (the hider);(b)   The character attempting to find the hider (the seeker);(c)   Some objective third party measure (for example, it's always dim light as a human would perceive dim light)If the Shadowdancer is using shadows as concealment, and the seeker can see through the shadows, then the seeker should have no difficulty continuing to perceive the Shadowdancer.I'd be OK with a ruling that "The Shadowdancer's use of HiPS to confound a direct observer binds the shadows tightly enough to confuse even Darkvision, providing the opportunity for stealth to be used while the Darkvision user is momentarily unable to observe the Shadowdancer."  Add in "Creatures observing the Shadowdancer using other senses are not affected by the Shadowdancer's HiPS ability."  To the initial question, Darkvision is not mentioned here either.  Would you hold that Darkvision can only see through absolute darkness, and not through shadows, such that a Darkvision user holding a torch can see perfectly with normal vision to 20', and from 40' to 60' can again see perfectly, this time with Darkvision, but is confused by the dim lighting from 20' to 40', such that he cannot directly observe a person in that area and they may use Stealth?  A reminder that   That suggests to me that Darkvision should be no less effective in dim lighting.Again, the RAW does not state that use of stealth always requires cover or concealment.  The discussion of Surprise states that .  I would suggest the determination of awareness of a person sneaking up behind you appropriately requires a perception roll.  This is especially so outside of combat (ie when you are not consciously attempting to minimize blind spots)."It's magic" does not automatically mean "it's invisibility".  This is at least as much reading words into the ability as anything you have accused of same.  The only reason he was prevented from using Stealth is that he was under direct observation.  HiPS enables him to break that direct observation, without the usual requirement of either distraction or use of cover or concealment included in the Stealth skill, enabling the skill to be used.  Once the hider has been able to use Stealth, he cannot be "observed" until he is again Perceived by the seeker.Neither mechanics nor concept can be removed without damaging the game.  So what?To find common ground, I suggest that the mechanics and description of the ability should be consistent.  It is inconsistencies and unexplained aspects of one or both which create the need for rules interpretations.  Where the issues are explicitly stated, deviation from same is a house rule.The determination of whether darkvision is or is not effective should be consistent with the manner in which the ability functions.  Mechanically, darkvision is never affected by lighting conditions.  As such, any ability which depends on using lighting conditions against the observer logically fail when used against an observer with darkvision.  You seem to be approaching this from the viewpoint that any ambiguity should be resolved in favour of one ability, HiPS, to the detriment of another ability, Darkvision, as though this is in the interests of fairness and equity.  But fairness and equity to whom?  If the scenario is a PC Shadowdancer seeking to hide from a group of vile NPC Orcs, clearly you are resolving the ambiguity in favour of the PC.  However, the scenario could just as easily be a villainous organization of Shadowdancers being opposed by a team of Dwarven and Half-Orcish PC's - now your ruling is resolved in favour of the DM's NPC's.  My preference is to seek an objective solution.I continue to think the answer lies in determining exactly what the Shadowdancer's HiPS does.  If it simply allows him the benefit of dim lighting to permit stealth checks, even when he is up to 10' away from that dim lighting, then it should be resolved in the same manner as one would resolve the same stealth ability for a hider lacking HiPS, but standing in dim lighting.  If it draws the shadow from his surroundings, a case could be made that he can create a momentary "deeper darkness" which confounds even Darkvision (as this is a Supernatural ability, and many magical forms of Darkness foil even Darkvision).  We could even say he uses the nearby shadows to power a chameleonlike ability, or a power to Cloud Men's Minds so they cannot perceive him (further and further afield from the Shadowdancer flavour, but valid approaches).  All of these are house rules - there is a need for some form of house rule to resolve the ambiguity in the RAW.Does it matter which of the Shadowdancer and the Darkvision user is a player character?  Any rule that favours the character using one of the two abilities is to the disfavour of the other, so I don't think that provides any basis for deciding which ability wins, or should win.BTW, if we rely on the fact "dim light" allows stealth and does not say Darkvision spoils that, then clearly darkness has no similar effect.Is the Shadowdancer a human, who perceives dim light 20' to 40' from a torch, or an elf who perceives dim light 40' - 80' from a torch?    I'm again coming back to a crying need for rules that address the impact of dim lighting on Stealth.  Can a human (ignoring HiPS for the moment) standing 30' away from an Elf with a torch staring right at him use Stealth as the Human is in dim light, or will it fail because the elf sees him in normal light?Similarly, is an elven Shadowdancer 15' from a torch 5' away from dim light (to a human) or 25' away from dim light (to his own perceptions)?  HiPS allows the user to use Stealth based on a lighting condition.  The impact of a lighting condition depends on the acuity of vision.  The radius of each type of light is doubled for characters with low light vision, so an elf 25' from a torch is in bright light for himself, but dim light for a human.  He is more than 10' away from dim light as an elf, but within dim light were he human.  I think you dismiss the issue too lightly.  You could certainly rule "dim light as perceived by a human", "dim light as perceived by the user of HiPS" or "dim light as perceived by the observer", but each of the three adds words to the actual RAW, so would appear to be a house rule by your definition.  The ambiguity of the rules means any interpretation must add to the RAW, becoming a house rule by your definition.</blockquote>

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