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<blockquote data-quote="Lord Pendragon" data-source="post: 1845745" data-attributes="member: 707">I think the example has merit (of course I would, since I posted it. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f61b.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":p" title="Stick out tongue&nbsp; &nbsp; :p"&nbsp; data-smilie="7"data-shortname=":p" />)&nbsp; Both cast spells, and one class gets those spells very late.&nbsp; It doesn't make them any more powerful.&nbsp; As a rule, a later ability does not need to be more powerful than an early one, and classes can get the same ability at unequal levels, without the power level being affected at all.My point, and thus my stance, is that True Seeing does not negate all magical concealment, nor all magical misdirection.&nbsp; It ignores the concealment granted by darkness or magical darkness.&nbsp; HiPS requires shadows be present, it does not depend on the concealment of those shadows to function.&nbsp; It's just as possible that the Shadowdancer shifts partially into the Plane of Shadow, just enough to have his visible form flicker out of view for a bit.&nbsp; Does True Seeing thwart this?&nbsp; Not at all.You could also envision the Shadowdancer as drawing on the substance of the Plane of Shadow to create a small &quot;smoke-bomb&quot; of quasi-real Shadow stuff.&nbsp; Just as the Shadow Conjuration/Evocation spells can create objects and creatures that are 20% real, so too would this &quot;shadow smoke&quot; be 20% real.&nbsp; But that's enough to foil TS, which cannot penetrate fog-like barriers, including magical ones, so long as they are actually Conjurations, and not Illusions.If the DM rules that HiPS is dependent on the shadows actually providing concealment (which would be a narrower view than the ability description itself supports, but not entirely unfounded and certainly fitting with the flavor of the class,) then yes, one could further rule that, because HiPS requires the concealment of the shadows, and that concealment is negated by True Seeing, then HiPS is trumped by TS.I don't believe HiPS is dependent on the concealment of the shadows, and therefore it is not thwarted by True Seeing.I mentioned a possible description above, but note that I do not think the magical nature of HiPS (which is beyond dispute, really.&nbsp; Sure, the ability allows mundane hiding, but it's a magical ability that allows mundane hiding,) is itself enough to render it vulnerable to TS.&nbsp; TS does not foil any magical deception.&nbsp; It's very specific on those magical deceptions that are vulnerable to it.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Lord Pendragon, post: 1845745, member: 707"] I think the example has merit (of course I [i]would[/i], since I posted it. :p) Both cast spells, and one class gets those spells [i]very[/i] late. It doesn't make them any more powerful. As a rule, a later ability does not need to be more powerful than an early one, and classes can get the [i]same[/i] ability at unequal levels, without the power level being affected at all.My point, and thus my stance, is that [i]True Seeing[/i] does not negate all magical concealment, nor all magical misdirection. It ignores the concealment granted by darkness or magical darkness. HiPS requires shadows be present, it does not depend on the concealment of those shadows to function. It's just as possible that the Shadowdancer shifts partially into the Plane of Shadow, just enough to have his visible form flicker out of view for a bit. Does [i]True Seeing[/i] thwart this? Not at all. You could also envision the Shadowdancer as drawing on the substance of the Plane of Shadow to create a small "smoke-bomb" of quasi-real Shadow stuff. Just as the Shadow Conjuration/Evocation spells can create objects and creatures that are 20% real, so too would this "shadow smoke" be 20% real. But that's enough to foil TS, which cannot penetrate fog-like barriers, [i]including magical ones[/i], so long as they are actually Conjurations, and not Illusions. If the DM rules that HiPS is dependent on the shadows actually providing concealment (which would be a narrower view than the ability description itself supports, but not entirely unfounded and certainly fitting with the flavor of the class,) then yes, one could further rule that, because HiPS requires the concealment of the shadows, and that concealment is negated by [i]True Seeing[/i], then HiPS is trumped by TS. I don't believe HiPS is dependent on the concealment of the shadows, and therefore it is not thwarted by [i]True Seeing[/i].I mentioned a possible description above, but note that I do not think the magical nature of HiPS (which is beyond dispute, really. Sure, the ability allows mundane hiding, but it's a [i]magical[/i] ability that allows mundane hiding,) is itself enough to render it vulnerable to TS. TS does not foil any magical deception. It's very specific on those magical deceptions that are vulnerable to it. [/QUOTE]

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