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Hiding and Blindness (updated)
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<blockquote data-quote="Ovinomancer" data-source="post: 7529251" data-attributes="member: 16814"><p>Obscured does not reference heavily obscured. It's quite clear 'even obscured only by a creature that is at least one size larger than you." If this causes heavy obscurement, I 1) can't find that anywhere in the rules and 2) have been doing it wrong by not having things be heavily obscured by merely being behind a larger creature.</p><p></p><p>Regardless, the rules of the game state that, in order to hide, you must be "not clearly seen." This is not the same as Unseen.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Right after you said that specific trumps general you're here saying that the specific rule for invisibility is a general rule? The strong hint here is that you need be 'not seen clearly' to hide, not that you must be unseen to be able to hide.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Basic rules, under "Hide":</p><p></p><p>"When you take the Hide action, you make a Dexterity (Stealth) check in an attempt to hide, following the rules for hiding. If you succeed, you gain certain benefits, as described in the "Unseen Attackers and Targets" section later in this section."</p><p></p><p>Unseen Attackers has the following:</p><p></p><p>"Combatants often try to escape their foes' notice by hiding, casting the invisibility spell, or lurking in darkness.</p><p></p><p>When you attack a target that you can't see, you have disadvantage on the attack roll. This is true whether you're guessing the target's location or you're targeting a creature you can hear but not see. If the target isn't in the location you targeted, you automatically miss, but the DM typically just says that the attack missed, not whether you guessed the target's location correctly.</p><p></p><p>When a creature can't see you, you have advantage on attack rolls against it. <strong>If you are hidden--both unseen and unheard</strong>--when you make an attack, you give away your location when the attack hits or misses."</p><p></p><p>Emphasis is mine.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Well, I can agree on the fog thing due to the cancelling of advantage and disadvantage, but, again, the basic play loop adds lots of opportunity for uncertainty. Further, spells are really hard hit by not being able to see the target, even if there's no disadvantage.</p><p></p><p>However, I can see adding 'that you can see' to the text above such that it reads:</p><p>"When a creature <strong>that you can see</strong> can't see you, you have advantage on attack rolls against it.".</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Again, I find following the play loop in 5e handles this well. If players are describing their actions according to the scene framing I provided, with a clear goal and approach, it makes it easy to determine if the approach is automatic success, automatic failure, or uncertain. If uncertain, use an ability check (or other, if appropriate) to resolve the uncertainty. Then narrate the results. I dislike your hard ruling about movement speeds because it doesn't take into account a good approach -- it limits possibilities. Normally, if a player announces their PC is moving across a room while blind and doesn't have an approach to take their time and feel the way, I have no problem determining that's an automatic failure due to impact with furnishings and calling for a DEX check to remain standing. That's what happens normally. But, if they describe an approach that says they're slowly moving and feeling ahead with a weapon, then they make it across the room at a slow speed without a check. If they want to move quickly but are feeling ahead, I'm uncertain and will call for a WIS check (the approach involves detecting obstacles through probing) DC 15 for success, failure means they get tripped up (go prone, can continue moving).</p><p></p><p>But, the best part of the above is if it's the PC's house and they've made it a thing where they practice moving through it in the dark. Then it's not check, high speed, no chance of failure. Your rule doesn't allow for this kind of accommodation, it locks in environmental effects and it less prone to adjudication due to good approach.</p><p></p><p>Now, all that said, I recognize that people play different ways, so if the play cycle doesn't suit you because you prefer a different play method, cool, the more the merrier.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Ovinomancer, post: 7529251, member: 16814"] Obscured does not reference heavily obscured. It's quite clear 'even obscured only by a creature that is at least one size larger than you." If this causes heavy obscurement, I 1) can't find that anywhere in the rules and 2) have been doing it wrong by not having things be heavily obscured by merely being behind a larger creature. Regardless, the rules of the game state that, in order to hide, you must be "not clearly seen." This is not the same as Unseen. Right after you said that specific trumps general you're here saying that the specific rule for invisibility is a general rule? The strong hint here is that you need be 'not seen clearly' to hide, not that you must be unseen to be able to hide. Basic rules, under "Hide": "When you take the Hide action, you make a Dexterity (Stealth) check in an attempt to hide, following the rules for hiding. If you succeed, you gain certain benefits, as described in the "Unseen Attackers and Targets" section later in this section." Unseen Attackers has the following: "Combatants often try to escape their foes' notice by hiding, casting the invisibility spell, or lurking in darkness. When you attack a target that you can't see, you have disadvantage on the attack roll. This is true whether you're guessing the target's location or you're targeting a creature you can hear but not see. If the target isn't in the location you targeted, you automatically miss, but the DM typically just says that the attack missed, not whether you guessed the target's location correctly. When a creature can't see you, you have advantage on attack rolls against it. [B]If you are hidden--both unseen and unheard[/B]--when you make an attack, you give away your location when the attack hits or misses." Emphasis is mine. Well, I can agree on the fog thing due to the cancelling of advantage and disadvantage, but, again, the basic play loop adds lots of opportunity for uncertainty. Further, spells are really hard hit by not being able to see the target, even if there's no disadvantage. However, I can see adding 'that you can see' to the text above such that it reads: "When a creature [B]that you can see[/B] can't see you, you have advantage on attack rolls against it.". Again, I find following the play loop in 5e handles this well. If players are describing their actions according to the scene framing I provided, with a clear goal and approach, it makes it easy to determine if the approach is automatic success, automatic failure, or uncertain. If uncertain, use an ability check (or other, if appropriate) to resolve the uncertainty. Then narrate the results. I dislike your hard ruling about movement speeds because it doesn't take into account a good approach -- it limits possibilities. Normally, if a player announces their PC is moving across a room while blind and doesn't have an approach to take their time and feel the way, I have no problem determining that's an automatic failure due to impact with furnishings and calling for a DEX check to remain standing. That's what happens normally. But, if they describe an approach that says they're slowly moving and feeling ahead with a weapon, then they make it across the room at a slow speed without a check. If they want to move quickly but are feeling ahead, I'm uncertain and will call for a WIS check (the approach involves detecting obstacles through probing) DC 15 for success, failure means they get tripped up (go prone, can continue moving). But, the best part of the above is if it's the PC's house and they've made it a thing where they practice moving through it in the dark. Then it's not check, high speed, no chance of failure. Your rule doesn't allow for this kind of accommodation, it locks in environmental effects and it less prone to adjudication due to good approach. Now, all that said, I recognize that people play different ways, so if the play cycle doesn't suit you because you prefer a different play method, cool, the more the merrier. [/QUOTE]
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