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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Zodar" data-source="post: 1724859" data-attributes="member: 18831">From the SRD:SURPRISEWhen a combat starts, if you are not aware of your opponents and they are aware of you, you’re surprised.Determining AwarenessSometimes all the combatants on a side are aware of their opponents, sometimes none are, and sometimes only some of them are. Sometimes a few combatants on each side are aware and the other combatants on each side are unaware.Determining awareness may call for Listen checks, Spot checks, or other checks.The Surprise Round: If some but not all of the combatants are aware of their opponents, a surprise round happens before regular rounds begin. Any combatants aware of the opponents can act in the surprise round, so they roll for initiative. In initiative order (highest to lowest), combatants who started the battle aware of their opponents each take a standard action during the surprise round. You can also take free actions during the surprise round. If no one or everyone is surprised, no surprise round occurs.Unaware Combatants: Combatants who are unaware at the start of battle don’t get to act in the surprise round. Unaware combatants are flat-footed because they have not acted yet, so they lose any Dexterity bonus to AC.From this, I gather that you have to be aware of your opponent (which necessitates (sp?) a spot check, or something similar) to be able to act (ie. roll initiative).The thug obviously failed his spot check and so is blissfully unaware of the rogue - until he feels the dagger/sword/stick of poking eyes out enter his body.In a combat situation where the rogue had already been noticed before hiding himself, I'd absolutely agree with the -20 to the hide check. But from what little information we have, I'd have to go for the 'determinig awareness' rules as described above, since we don't know if combat has already started or not.</blockquote>

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