Hiding Objects

[WizarDru]

Specifically, what mechanic is used when a PC or NPC wishes to hide an object? The Sleight of Hand skill involves hiding a small object on your person, but only as part of the larger action of picking someone's pocket...and that hardly qualifies for some of the situations in which hiding an object might be involved.

Is it handled into a different skill for the situation in question? For example, for hiding small items on your person, it might be Sleight of Hand; for hiding large objects in the outdours, it might be Survival; for hiding large objects in a house, it might be Bluff?

Have I missed an obvious rule, somewhere? I see under the entry for Search that they give some sample DCs for finding hidden objects, but no real mention of how they got hidden in the first place.

Thoughts?

 

[AuraSeer]

[Edited to clarify: the following is a house rule, for hiding objects not on one's person. I came up with it on the fly when a ranger wanted to stash a heavy treasure and come back for it later.]

For hiding an object other than oneself, I use the Hide skill, with a few modifications. The character uses his Intelligence modifier, instead of Dexterity. The target's size modifier (if any) and Dexterity bonus (usually -5) are added to the check. The hider gets a +2 synergy bonus if he has at least 5 ranks in Survival.

 

[Shadowdweller]

The Sleight of Hand skill involves hiding a small object on your person, but only as part of the larger action of picking someone's pocket...and that hardly qualifies for some of the situations in which hiding an object might be involved.

I don't see how you come to this "interpretation." In any event, no, Sleight of Hand applies to all cases of hiding an object on one's person. I'd personally use the Hide skill for hiding objects in the surroundings.

 

[WizarDru]

I don't see how you come to this "interpretation." In any event, no, Sleight of Hand applies to all cases of hiding an object on one's person. I'd personally use the Hide skill for hiding objects in the surroundings.

From poor memory of the entry, primarly. Rereading it, I can see it doesn't actually link the two sentences directly. However, with respect to size, it's quite unambigous: "You can hide a small object (including a light weapon or an easily concealed ranged weapon, such as a dart, sling, or hand crossbow) on your body."

I'm specifically interested if there is an actual mechanic for hiding items, rather than a house-rule. Using Hide is adequate, but doesn't really seem to work quite right. One shouldn't need to be agile to hide an object, or be better because of it. That would sound more like Bluff or even Appraise.

 

[Len]

Sleight of Hand is used in other situations besides picking pockets, e.g. concealing your holdout dagger when someone is frisking you. But that doesn't answer the question about hiding an object elsewhere.

I see no rule about this in the SRD or PHB. (I even looked up the rules for crafting traps, reasoning that you have to hide the trap.)

Bluff doesn't seem like an appropriate skill for hiding something. How much charisma does it take to stick a key in the ice cream? Seems like it should be an INT-based skill, or maybe DEX. Sleight of Hand isn't a good choice since it's trained-only, and certainly anyone should be able to hide something.

You could use Search, on the theory that someone who knows how to find things also knows where it's hard to find things. Alternatively, just do an INT or DEX check, whichever seems appropriate.

 

[Shadowdweller]

Using Hide is adequate, but doesn't really seem to work quite right. One shouldn't need to be agile to hide an object, or be better because of it.

Nods. Somewhere in the DMG is a passage which offers a variant wherein nonstandard stats are occasionally applied to different skills, much like your ideas above. Seems perfectly reasonable to me.

 

[Saeviomagy]

I'd take a look at the d20 modern SRD for using sleight of hand to hide items on your person. Full rules for all sizes, and what to do if you're untrained.

 

[WizarDru]

I'd take a look at the d20 modern SRD for using sleight of hand to hide items on your person. Full rules for all sizes, and what to do if you're untrained.

Where would that be located? Under the actual skill, all that is listed is the following:


"Sleight of Hand (Dex) Trained Only; Armor Penalty

Check: A check against DC 10 lets a character palm a coin-sized, unattended object. Minor feats of sleight of hand, such as making a coin disappear, also have a DC of 10 unless an observer is concentrating on noticing what the character is doing.

When a character performs this skill under close observation, the character’s skill check is opposed by the observer’s Spot check. The observer’s check doesn’t prevent the character from performing the action, just from doing it unnoticed.

When a character tries to take something from another person, the character’s opponent makes a Spot check to detect the attempt. To obtain the object, the character must get a result of 20 or higher, regardless of the opponent’s check result. The opponent detects the attempt if his or her check result beats the character’s check result, whether the character takes the object or not.

A character can use Sleight of Hand to conceal a small weapon or object on his or her body.

Try Again?: A second Sleight of Hand attempt against the same target, or when being watched by the same observer, has a DC 10 higher than the first check if the first check failed or if the attempt was noticed.

Special: A character can take 10 when making a Sleight of Hand check, but can’t take 20.

A character can make an untrained Sleight of Hand check to conceal a weapon or object, but must always take 10.

A character with the Nimble feat and at least 1 rank in this skill gets a +2 bonus on all Sleight of Hand checks.

Time: A Sleight of Hand check is an attack action."


Which is actually less detail in some parts than the normal d20 skill description.


In particular, I'm wondering how someone would hide something from a search, such as smuggling goods on board a ship or hiding contraband, for example. I'm thinking, at this point that sleight of hand is specific to hiding things on your person (be it a gun, knife or coin purse), hide is for hiding yourself, and possibly search for hiding things from being found (as it uses INT and seems the most logical).

 

[Len]

Wow, that's very different from the SRD I'm looking at! I don't have the PHB handy (I guess I should get a copy for the office ) but I don't recall it being different from the SRD. What are you quoting from?

Here's a quote from the authentic 3.5 SRD file SkillsII.rtf just downloaded from wizards.com:

[size=-2]
SLEIGHT OF HAND (DEX; TRAINED ONLY; ARMOR CHECK PENALTY)
Check: A DC 10 Sleight of Hand check lets you palm a coin-sized, unattended object. Performing a minor feat of legerdemain, such as making a coin disappear, also has a DC of 10 unless an observer is determined to note where the item went.
When you use this skill under close observation, your skill check is opposed by the observer’s Spot check. The observer’s success doesn’t prevent you from performing the action, just from doing it unnoticed.
You can hide a small object (including a light weapon or an easily concealed ranged weapon, such as a dart, sling, or hand crossbow) on your body. Your Sleight of Hand check is opposed by the Spot check of anyone observing you or the Search check of anyone frisking you. In the latter case, the searcher gains a +4 bonus on the Search check, since it’s generally easier to find such an object than to hide it. A dagger is easier to hide than most light weapons, and grants you a +2 bonus on your Sleight of Hand check to conceal it. An extraordinarily small object, such as a coin, shuriken, or ring, grants you a +4 bonus on your Sleight of Hand check to conceal it, and heavy or baggy clothing (such as a cloak) grants you a +2 bonus on the check.
Drawing a hidden weapon is a standard action and doesn’t provoke an attack of opportunity.
If you try to take something from another creature, you must make a DC 20 Sleight of Hand check to obtain it. The opponent makes a Spot check to detect the attempt, opposed by the same Sleight of Hand check result you achieved when you tried to grab the item. An opponent who succeeds on this check notices the attempt, regardless of whether you got the item.
You can also use Sleight of Hand to entertain an audience as though you were using the Perform skill. In such a case, your “act” encompasses elements of legerdemain, juggling, and the like.

Sleight of Hand DC Task
10 Palm a coin-sized object, make a coin disappear
20 Lift a small object from a person

Action: Any Sleight of Hand check normally is a standard action. However, you may perform a Sleight of Hand check as a free action by taking a –20 penalty on the check.
Try Again: Yes, but after an initial failure, a second Sleight of Hand attempt against the same target (or while you are being watched by the same observer who noticed your previous attempt) increases the DC for the task by 10.
Special: If you have the Deft Hands feat, you get a +2 bonus on Sleight of Hand checks.
Synergy: If you have 5 or more ranks in Bluff, you get a +2 bonus on Sleight of Hand checks.
Untrained: An untrained Sleight of Hand check is simply a Dexterity check. Without actual training, you can’t succeed on any Sleight of Hand check with a DC higher than 10, except for hiding an object on your body.
[/size]

 

[WizarDru]

Wow, that's very different from the SRD I'm looking at! I don't have the PHB handy (I guess I should get a copy for the office ) but I don't recall it being different from the SRD. What are you quoting from?

Here's a quote from the authentic 3.5 SRD file SkillsII.rtf just downloaded from wizards.com:

That was the skill from d20 Modern, as per Saeviomagy's suggestion. It's simplified (or streamlined, depending on your point-of-view) when compared with the standard d20 version. I showed it for comparison, and hoping that he might point out if I missed the information he alluded to in his post, or if I was referencing the wrong version.