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Message: <blockquote data-quote="N'raac" data-source="post: 6370743" data-attributes="member: 6681948">When I see point buy for that SAD class, he jacks up his main stat as high as he can without  crippling his more relevant secondary stats.  F'rex, a 26 point buy * Wizard might have 8 STR, 8 CHA, 10 WIS, 12 CON, 12 DEX and jack that INT up to 18.If you roll, no guarantee you're getting a 16-18.  In the OP example, he was the only one to roll better than a 15.  But 4d6, drop the lowest, tends to have a lot of "high averages", say 13 - 15.  Drop the two 15's in major MAD stats, the two 12's in secondary stats, and the 10 and 8 in tertiary stats, or pick a Wizard with 15 INT and DEX, 12 CON, 12 WIS, 10 CHA and 8 STR (f'rex) and he looks a lot like our point buy wizard, except he was forced to accept a lower INT and a higher secondary stat.  * Those rolls work out to 26 point buy.  Would you ever see a Wizard with 2 15's from a point buy optimizer?  At a minimum, it would be 16 INT and 14 DEX.One interesting approach, for Umbran's "random with limits" model would be to roll 4d6, drop the lowest, add up the point buy and adjust to that point buy.  If your rolls are over (let's say) 28 point buy, you must reduce stats to get down to 28 - you can't increase any stat.  If your rolls are less than 28, you get to increase stats, but you can't lower any.  So our 15 15 12 12 10 8 could decide he can't live with a penalty and bump that 8 to a 10, or he could bump one of the 15's to a 16.  But he can't drop the other 15 to a 14, drop a 12 to a 10, drop the 10 to an 8 and pump that 16 to an 18.  Lucky rollers bring some rolls down, and less lucky rolls means raising some stats, but the initial rolls constrain your options considerably.</blockquote>

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