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High DPR Paladin-Rogue-Bard Will it work?
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<blockquote data-quote="ECMO3" data-source="post: 9252169" data-attributes="member: 7030563"><p>So I have always liked the idea of a melee DPR Paladin-Rogue with sneak attack. A player had one very early in 5E, and it works but I have always fell short on a build with it because it is so MAD and Rogue levels for sneak attack means not enough smites and Paladin levels mean not enough sneak attack. This resulted in them being good at low level but really petering off by the end of tier 2. At that level they did not have enough Rogue levels to make SA good and not enough slots to really smite.</p><p></p><p>I think I have came up with a 1-20 build that leverages Bard for this:</p><p></p><p>Shaddar Kai S13 D16 C12* I8 W8 CH17</p><p>Start with Paladin 1, then go Rogue/Arcane Trickster 4, Then Paladin 2, Then Whispers Bard 10, Then Conquest Paladin 4, Then Bard 12</p><p></p><p>I think this is going to be good/viable at all levels. Early tier 2 it slows down a bit, but picks up at the end.</p><p></p><p>Starting Paladin sacrifices a skill proficiency but I will have jack of all trades eventually and it gets me heavy armor proficiency and Wisdom saves. We don't play variant encumberance, so Chain is fine but Plate means a move of 20, but I think that is doable with bonus action dash and as my Shaddar Kai teleport gets more uses. Take Dueling at Paladin 2 (character 6)</p><p></p><p>Get Booming Blade and Green Flame Blade through Rogue to boost attack damage and rely on 1 attack a turn. Also pick up Shield, Silvery Barbs and 2 illusions.</p><p></p><p>As far as Bard goes I would get some buff spells, some offensive spells and probably Banishing Smite and Destructive Wave for Magical secrets. Psychic Blades keeps up with sneak in terms of damage. It is just limited uses. With a 20 Charisma after Bard 5 (character level 11) I should be able to use it most of the time though.</p><p></p><p>I would go Elven Accuracy with Charisma at level 5 and Charisma ASI at level 10. I think Charisma is more important than Dexterity because I will be using Bard inspiration for Psychic Blades. After that either Dex ASIs or maybe Warcaster..</p><p></p><p>I think this character works in all tiers. It is ok tier 1, probably a little behind, I might concentrate on Ranged with a heavy crossbow in tier 1. Tier 2 it starts out with 2d6 sneak attack, which would be slightly low but the cantrip keeps it slightly better than base sneak. It then gets smite and then finally stack up bard levels for slots, becoming more of a smiter at the end of tier 2. Tier 3 Psychic Blades really comes online with short rest recharge.</p><p></p><p>DPR (includes sneak atttack):</p><p>Level 1: 7.5</p><p>Level 2-3: 11</p><p>Level 4: 14.5</p><p>Level 5: 19 + occasional 3.5 secondary cantrip damage</p><p>Level 6-8: 21 + occasional 3,5 secondary cantrip damage + rare smites</p><p>Level 9-10: 21 + occasional 3.5 secondary cantrip damage + occasional 7 psychic blades + regular smites</p><p>Level 11-13: 25.5 + occasional 8 secondary cantrip + regular 10.5 psychic blades + regular smites</p><p>Level 14-15: 26.5 + occasional 8 secondary cantrip + regular 10.5 psychic blades + regular smites</p><p>Level 16: 26.5 + occasional 8 secondary cantrip + regular 17.5 psychic blades + regular smites</p><p>Level 17: 31 + occasional 12.5 secondary cantrip + regular 17.5 psychic blades + regular smites</p><p>Level 18-20: 31 + occasional 12.5 secondary cantrip + regular 17.5 psychic blades + regular smites</p><p></p><p>At level 20 this build I have a caster level of 15, way ahead of a single class Paladin. With a 20 Charisma this character has some ability to flex to magic (spells) when warranted and some (not great) ranged ability as well. If you compare it to a straight Paladin I would be 1 caster level behind at 2nd level, 2 behind at 3rd level, one behind at 4th-7th, equal at 8th-9th and ahead after 9th level.</p><p></p><p>What do you think? Any good?</p><p></p><p>*note a lot of people won't like a 12 Con on a melee build, but it is fairly common for my melee characters. I usually rely on AC and spells and abilities to bolster my durability and it will be the same here. This character will have a high AC, shield, Silvery Barbs and Shaddar Kai resistance from teleporting and very late she will have Armor of Agathys. I am not worried about the Constitution, it is mostly the other parts of the build I am concerned about.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="ECMO3, post: 9252169, member: 7030563"] So I have always liked the idea of a melee DPR Paladin-Rogue with sneak attack. A player had one very early in 5E, and it works but I have always fell short on a build with it because it is so MAD and Rogue levels for sneak attack means not enough smites and Paladin levels mean not enough sneak attack. This resulted in them being good at low level but really petering off by the end of tier 2. At that level they did not have enough Rogue levels to make SA good and not enough slots to really smite. I think I have came up with a 1-20 build that leverages Bard for this: Shaddar Kai S13 D16 C12* I8 W8 CH17 Start with Paladin 1, then go Rogue/Arcane Trickster 4, Then Paladin 2, Then Whispers Bard 10, Then Conquest Paladin 4, Then Bard 12 I think this is going to be good/viable at all levels. Early tier 2 it slows down a bit, but picks up at the end. Starting Paladin sacrifices a skill proficiency but I will have jack of all trades eventually and it gets me heavy armor proficiency and Wisdom saves. We don't play variant encumberance, so Chain is fine but Plate means a move of 20, but I think that is doable with bonus action dash and as my Shaddar Kai teleport gets more uses. Take Dueling at Paladin 2 (character 6) Get Booming Blade and Green Flame Blade through Rogue to boost attack damage and rely on 1 attack a turn. Also pick up Shield, Silvery Barbs and 2 illusions. As far as Bard goes I would get some buff spells, some offensive spells and probably Banishing Smite and Destructive Wave for Magical secrets. Psychic Blades keeps up with sneak in terms of damage. It is just limited uses. With a 20 Charisma after Bard 5 (character level 11) I should be able to use it most of the time though. I would go Elven Accuracy with Charisma at level 5 and Charisma ASI at level 10. I think Charisma is more important than Dexterity because I will be using Bard inspiration for Psychic Blades. After that either Dex ASIs or maybe Warcaster.. I think this character works in all tiers. It is ok tier 1, probably a little behind, I might concentrate on Ranged with a heavy crossbow in tier 1. Tier 2 it starts out with 2d6 sneak attack, which would be slightly low but the cantrip keeps it slightly better than base sneak. It then gets smite and then finally stack up bard levels for slots, becoming more of a smiter at the end of tier 2. Tier 3 Psychic Blades really comes online with short rest recharge. DPR (includes sneak atttack): Level 1: 7.5 Level 2-3: 11 Level 4: 14.5 Level 5: 19 + occasional 3.5 secondary cantrip damage Level 6-8: 21 + occasional 3,5 secondary cantrip damage + rare smites Level 9-10: 21 + occasional 3.5 secondary cantrip damage + occasional 7 psychic blades + regular smites Level 11-13: 25.5 + occasional 8 secondary cantrip + regular 10.5 psychic blades + regular smites Level 14-15: 26.5 + occasional 8 secondary cantrip + regular 10.5 psychic blades + regular smites Level 16: 26.5 + occasional 8 secondary cantrip + regular 17.5 psychic blades + regular smites Level 17: 31 + occasional 12.5 secondary cantrip + regular 17.5 psychic blades + regular smites Level 18-20: 31 + occasional 12.5 secondary cantrip + regular 17.5 psychic blades + regular smites At level 20 this build I have a caster level of 15, way ahead of a single class Paladin. With a 20 Charisma this character has some ability to flex to magic (spells) when warranted and some (not great) ranged ability as well. If you compare it to a straight Paladin I would be 1 caster level behind at 2nd level, 2 behind at 3rd level, one behind at 4th-7th, equal at 8th-9th and ahead after 9th level. What do you think? Any good? *note a lot of people won't like a 12 Con on a melee build, but it is fairly common for my melee characters. I usually rely on AC and spells and abilities to bolster my durability and it will be the same here. This character will have a high AC, shield, Silvery Barbs and Shaddar Kai resistance from teleporting and very late she will have Armor of Agathys. I am not worried about the Constitution, it is mostly the other parts of the build I am concerned about. [/QUOTE]
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