High Level Battles - How to DM?

[RJSmalls]

Curious - how do you fellow DM's handle combat when your PC's start going against baddies around CR 15 and above? It seems to me that creatures around that power level (or greater) have so many different options and capabilties that a DM would be hard-pressed to play them correctly.

I don't have much experience DMing at those levels of play (and I have no experience DMing at those levels in 3E), but I've already dropped the ball with a CR 10 dragon or something along those lines. Do you cats go so far as to play-out battles prior to sitting down with your PC's? Do you maybe pre-determine the first 4-5 rounds of action for your high level bad guys (much like a football team has chosen plays for the first offensive drive)?

Do you, honestly, feel that you play those higher level enemies to their full capability; or do you do the best you can and figure that's good enough? I realize I'm just spitting out questions, but it seems to me that high level baddies may get ripped off when it's all said and done.

A dragon with the Snatch feat, it seems to me, could be more than a match. Fly in, grab, fly away, drop. Rinse, repeat. And if a monster has a teleport without error capability - jeesh, I see a party being picked off one at a time. Fun for the players? Probably not. But if those capabilities exist, shouldn't they be used? At the very least, I woudl think the higher level baddies would have much more of an opportunity to escape to fight another day.

Let me finish up with another question: Have any of you legitimately sent Orcus or something like him against a high level party? I look over the Big O's stats in the BoVD and I just can't figure out how he'd be defeated if he were played like the stud he is. And he's by no means the toughest cat out there.

I ramble.

And to finish this with one last non-sensical and worthless note, check out the picture on pg 152 of the BoVD. Is it me, or is Belial's groin shaped like a skull? See the two eyes, nose, and mouth? Those wild and crazy WotC artists - man, they kill me.

I'm out.

Smalls

 

[megamania]

The highest I've Dmed in 3e is about 8th but....

My suggestion is plan ahead.

Think about what the two or three things your group are most likely to do. Write thoise down. Then decide on options ahead of time and write them down. It's not 100% but if you have a feel for your group you'll proberly be set most of the time.

 

[megamania]

[

And to finish this with one last non-sensical and worthless note, check out the picture on pg 152 of the BoVD. Is it me, or is Belial's groin shaped like a skull? See the two eyes, nose, and mouth? Those wild and crazy WotC artists - man, they kill me.


Smalls [/B]

Is that the one where the skull looks phyallic?

 

[the Jester]

I think the key is to have a few different tactical notes written up: "Given time, he'll cast these spells for defense... If one of the party tanks is working him over, he'll use his domination gaze on them... He tries to take out clerics first because he knows they can heal... etc..."

You don't need to write much down to give enough of an outline to run a villain relatively effectively.

Here are the tactics for a creature I used in an adventure, presented as an example of minimalist tactical writing...

Tactics: By the time she attacks, Heor has already cast Shield, Mirror Image and Resistance. She starts the battle by throwing out a Stinking Cloud and then tries to Lightning Bolt anyone not nauseated. If the tide turns against her she tries to Shatter the most effective weapon (or any ghost touch weapons that the party has).

 

[HellHound]

A few basic tactics ahead of time.

I make sure to note the monster's higher-level spell-like effects. These are often the hardest elements of a monster to play well. Especially make note of the critters with Teleportation powers. A lot of outsiders have this, and it makes for interesting combats.

Play with the PHB and MM open in front of you for visual cues and reminders.

But yes, it is harder. You can't really just run it on the fly for most of these critters (although my experience tonight with a pair of shoggoths was refreshingly easy to run... no spell like abilities, no weird powers... just squish the PCs - of course this was all helped a LOT by the nature of the environment, the PC's own underground home, lots of stone passages, twists, turns and no room to stand and fight a foe who can just squish over you without an attack roll and deal 4d6+25 damage per round).

 

[Zenon]

Spellcasters and creatures are the worst to DM.

My Tips:

I hand write any high level NPC/Creature (really I write out all of them) on index cards (I'm up to 4"x6" for the high level stuff). This gives you a chance to physically go over all their abilities. I usually underline or asterisk important things like SR or DR so I don't forget them.

Write out their spell lists ahead of time (also kept track of on the card). This is especially important for cleric or wizard types so you know what they have memorized). Fill up your slots. Cross them off on the card as you use them.

Look at their feats. If a cleric has Extend spell and is high level (12+), make sure you memorize some Extended buff spells, they're good for all day. Roll up the stat adjustments and add them in ahead of time so you catch everything they modify.(BAB, saves, skills, etc)

Have a variable AC line to reflect spells cast upon them. As an example, I shorthand some notes on it:

AC 14(10+dex), 18 (w/ MA), 25 (w/ MA & Shld), 50% miss chance (Dsplcmnt), etc.

This is important because you can go over spells ahead of time and see which modifiers stack and which don't.

Think about their casting order (your football playbook analogy). If a Wizard has Haste, it's a good bet he'll cast that first, then other spells in order to be able to cast twice a round. Don't let them be pushovers.

Do you, honestly, feel that you play those higher level enemies to their full capability

You bet, it's your job as a DM to play them to their fullest. The CR rating is set up that way. I do give a benefit to XP for an NPC/creature who has had time to prepare rather than one caught off-guard. Realize that their will be something you forget about, it just happens. But being prepared ahead of time helps minimize that.

Hope this helps!

 

[Aust Diamondew]

Dming

It's hard sometimes. One of my PCs just hit level 15 and the others aren't far behind him. Around level 13 the battles were getting difficult to run on the fly so I started planning out what the Baddie would do the first few rounds of combat and I've outlined their opponents strategy. The main thing you need to do is not forget about little things like SR or a potion (I forget about SR more and more lately) cause these can make the difference between a easy a hard battle.

 

[ced1106]

Here's how you do it: Cheat.

Marvel Superheroes Adventure Game, which uses the SAGA system, plays the game from the player's perspective. Thus, instead of fighting character vs. character (the convention for most RPGs), the GM assigns a difficulty level for a PC to attempt (even if it's to avoid getting hit by an NPC).

Grab the PC sheets before the adventure, and get an idea of how well their opponents would hit them. (Don't cheat by fighting their weaknesses.) Assign a percentage (or number to roll on a d20) for each major opponent and PC. (All the minor opponents hit on a 19 and/or 20!)

As a GM, you're under the major disadvantage that the players know their characters better than you know your NPCs. That's natural -- a GM has a far greater range of rules he's responsible while the PC doesn't need to look past his character sheet.

Remember: You're playing, not bookkeeping!


Cedric.
aka. Washu! ^O^

 

[HellHound]

Ced - that is EXACTLY how I handle my attack rolls and ACs for my baddies. I set their bonuses and AC based on the PCs ACs and BABs. Then I just have to note numbers rolled.

 

[cptg1481]

High Level Play

When I get ready for a session regardless of the level, I pre-plan the actions of my NPC's. I sort of pick a style, i.e. aggressive, defensive, balanced etc., then I decide how much warning or fore-knowledge the NPC/monster has based upon what actions the PC's have taken prior to the encounter. I base this upon what I call the alert level of the monsters, or NPCs by room and location, the higher the alert level, the more buff spells, traps and potions the NPCs use.

I make an execution matrix in an action - counter action theme that keeps me focused on arbitration not confrontation in combat. After all, it's not the DM versus the players IMO it's not a contest, the DM is (or should be) impartial to either group. Sure I have to make adjustments sometimes but usually the matrix is appropriate.

I also decide in advance if the monster(s) and NPC's will fight to the death. Usually they don't in my world. Evil isn't stupid., I map out their escape routes or methods in case a chase is in order.

I like combat to be focused on the players actions. I don't even roll dice during the session....I use my dice roll generator to generate multiple results prior to the session (between 50-100 based on die type and session focus) for each die type and transfer them to a spread sheet. I make three sets of rolls per session and place them in a sealed envelope. One of the PC's gets to choose which set of rolls to use and reads me the results when I need to make a roll scratching out the ones I've used in order from first to last.

Sure I still have to roll some bluff, hide and move silent results since they are secret but it does save game time to do things this way.

As far as role playing monsters at higher CR, remember the monster/NPC knows what they are capable of and will take any and all steps to ensure their own survival. A simple note card with "don't forget to spider climb and....etc." should do just fine if you are in a rush. Your PC's won't forget about their special class abilities and powers so you'd better use the monsters as well.

The bottom line is, have confidence in the design of the game, if you are following the rewards system and the 13 encounters per level rule the PC's should be able to work through CR's appropriate to their level. The problems people get into is when they start "nerfing" the skills, spells and such, and reducing the rewards and magic (Ala "low magic") item availability, to fit their own ideals. As is the game is prettying well balanced IMO.

On a side note, it seems to me from reading the boards almost daily that a lot of people seem to like the game at its lower levels beter than at higer ones. I think it's balanced for both. I've even seen some go so far as to insist that one is or has a munchkinesque tendency if he'she enjoys a higher level or powered game. This is just a random observation on my part not meant to reflect on your post just rambling......I just think this is odd.