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<blockquote data-quote="Mercurius" data-source="post: 4608831" data-attributes="member: 59082">I'm having trouble getting my head around something in the 4ed rules. In the old days--any edition prior to 4ed---high level monsters, especially unique ones like demon lords and arch-devils, had spell-casting levels, so you could always get a sense of what they can &quot;do,&quot; and anyone with double-digit caster levels could &quot;do&quot; a lot. I have always assumed that such beings as demon lords are the equivalent of demi-gods or higher, and thus can &quot;do stuff&quot; on par with powerful spellcasters. If I remember correctly, in 1ed and/or 2ed each &quot;tier&quot; of divinity had a host of powers that they could use at-will. Even a warrior demi-god could still detect magic and teleport (or whatever).But now, when I look at the stat block of Graz'zt in the new Manual of the Planes (as an example), it doesn't look like he can &quot;do&quot; much. He can fight, he can use his nifty sword and dominate people, and he has a few trained skills, but as far as non-combat oriented powers, there isn't a lot (anything, really) there.Now I admittedly don't know the rules inside and out, so I could just be missing something. Am I, or is this a major hole in the 4ed rules? I hope it is the former, but if it is the latter then I guess I'm going to have to concoct some kind of house rule system and/or DM Fiatize regularly (&quot;The demon prince waves his hand and summons a goblet of elfblood wine&quot;). I just don't see how a major demon prince wouldn't be able to cast a solid array of spells-- not to mention rituals.On a related note, I find it strange, even disappointing, that when D&amp;D finally has a system that could relatively easily accomodate spontaneous magic (d20 + relevant ability score + 1/2 level + power type bonus vs. power DC, which might be something like 10 + level equivalent), it doesn't do anything with it. Or is that still to come?</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Mercurius, post: 4608831, member: 59082"] I'm having trouble getting my head around something in the 4ed rules. In the old days--any edition prior to 4ed---high level monsters, especially unique ones like demon lords and arch-devils, had spell-casting levels, so you could always get a sense of what they can "do," and anyone with double-digit caster levels could "do" a lot. I have always assumed that such beings as demon lords are the equivalent of demi-gods or higher, and thus can "do stuff" on par with powerful spellcasters. If I remember correctly, in 1ed and/or 2ed each "tier" of divinity had a host of powers that they could use at-will. Even a warrior demi-god could still detect magic and teleport (or whatever). But now, when I look at the stat block of Graz'zt in the new Manual of the Planes (as an example), it doesn't look like he can "do" much. He can fight, he can use his nifty sword and dominate people, and he has a few trained skills, but as far as non-combat oriented powers, there isn't a lot (anything, really) there. Now I admittedly don't know the rules inside and out, so I could just be missing something. Am I, or is this a major hole in the 4ed rules? I hope it is the former, but if it is the latter then I guess I'm going to have to concoct some kind of house rule system and/or DM Fiatize regularly ("The demon prince waves his hand and summons a goblet of elfblood wine"). I just don't see how a major demon prince wouldn't be able to cast a solid array of spells-- not to mention rituals. On a related note, I find it strange, even disappointing, that when D&D finally has a system that could relatively easily accomodate spontaneous magic (d20 + relevant ability score + 1/2 level + power type bonus vs. power DC, which might be something like 10 + level equivalent), it doesn't do anything with it. Or is that still to come? [/QUOTE]

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