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<blockquote data-quote="gizmo33" data-source="post: 4620340" data-attributes="member: 30001">I don't see this as just being about simulationism.&nbsp; It's about not really taking into account the contributions of the players to the plot in other than superficial ways (&quot;do you want to win the battle using your axe, or using your sword?&quot;).&nbsp; &nbsp;If you know the mechanics of Orcus' gate spell, for example, you can fairly judge the player's various attempts to close it (or respond to the uses of the Arcana skill) and define it's limitations rather than just arbitrarily decide based on some plot agenda.&nbsp; Combat and Skill Challenges are handled this way already.&nbsp; Why do monsters even have stat blocks?&nbsp; Why doesn't the DM just decide when they die rather than having to track hitpoints and 5-foot steps?&nbsp; The DM following certain rules behind the scenes isn't alien to DnD.&nbsp; In fact, it seems to me to be a central part of 4E.&nbsp; Still.&nbsp;The whole point of Skill Challenges was to provide a more mechanics-based system for resolving events.&nbsp; Saying &quot;it's not used in combat, so I can just make up the results based on plot considerations&quot; could be used for PCs Diplomacy with the King as well.&nbsp; But really, if you're a story teller and you want to follow plot considerations instead of following rules then why are you getting involved in rules discussions anyway?&nbsp; Who cares what the rules decide to cover - just ignore them as you do anyway.&nbsp; &nbsp;However, if your players are under the impression that you should be following the rules, and that's the reason that additional rules cause you heartburn (because they'll call you on them), then I think you have bigger problems.&nbsp; The solution IMO would begin by being honest with your players about what kind of game you want to run and outline which types of rules, if any, you intend to follow.&nbsp; &nbsp;You can always avoid conflict with players by sitting their characters in a featureless gray room with nothing to interact with - but IMO being a good DM includes taking some risks and being able to let players in on the event resolution of the game without freaking out about the loss of control.&nbsp; Akin to the Gray Room is a room where there are a bunch of objects, but the only one you can interact with is a sword, the rest are illusions.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="gizmo33, post: 4620340, member: 30001"] I don't see this as just being about simulationism. It's about not really taking into account the contributions of the players to the plot in other than superficial ways ("do you want to win the battle using your axe, or using your sword?"). If you know the mechanics of Orcus' gate spell, for example, you can fairly judge the player's various attempts to close it (or respond to the uses of the Arcana skill) and define it's limitations rather than just arbitrarily decide based on some plot agenda. Combat and Skill Challenges are handled this way already. Why do monsters even have stat blocks? Why doesn't the DM just decide when they die rather than having to track hitpoints and 5-foot steps? The DM following certain rules behind the scenes isn't alien to DnD. In fact, it seems to me to be a central part of 4E. Still. The whole point of Skill Challenges was to provide a more mechanics-based system for resolving events. Saying "it's not used in combat, so I can just make up the results based on plot considerations" could be used for PCs Diplomacy with the King as well. But really, if you're a story teller and you want to follow plot considerations instead of following rules then why are you getting involved in rules discussions anyway? Who cares what the rules decide to cover - just ignore them as you do anyway. However, if your players are under the impression that you should be following the rules, and that's the reason that additional rules cause you heartburn (because they'll call you on them), then I think you have bigger problems. The solution IMO would begin by being honest with your players about what kind of game you want to run and outline which types of rules, if any, you intend to follow. You can always avoid conflict with players by sitting their characters in a featureless gray room with nothing to interact with - but IMO being a good DM includes taking some risks and being able to let players in on the event resolution of the game without freaking out about the loss of control. Akin to the Gray Room is a room where there are a bunch of objects, but the only one you can interact with is a sword, the rest are illusions. [/QUOTE]

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