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<blockquote data-quote="DaveDash" data-source="post: 6624868" data-attributes="member: 6786202">Yes for Forcecage. It renderer a C16 creature with no ranged attacks useless. It's fairly limited use per day so I don't consider it too bad, however yes it could ruin your Dragon fight.If you the DM started ruling arbitrarily what could and couldn't fit inside a Force Cage, instead of using the standard square system, I'd quit your game. The whole reason 3e moved to a standard system in the first place is to prevent these kinds of discrepancies and arguments. It's back to cops and robbers &quot;I shoot you! No you didn't! Yee I did!&quot;.The other high spell I've seen user that isn't a save, but rather an ability check, is Maze. Pretty powerful. My group used it to Maze a Balor while they all buffed up.Otto's Dance is another. Seen it once, generally its range is too short to be useful all the time.When your casting DC gets high (17-18) even spells with saves (hold person, hold monster) become deadly as well. A CR20 Fighter without legendary resistances for example, doesn't have a hope in hell of breaking out of a Hold Person at DC19.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="DaveDash, post: 6624868, member: 6786202"] Yes for Forcecage. It renderer a C16 creature with no ranged attacks useless. It's fairly limited use per day so I don't consider it too bad, however yes it could ruin your Dragon fight. If you the DM started ruling arbitrarily what could and couldn't fit inside a Force Cage, instead of using the standard square system, I'd quit your game. The whole reason 3e moved to a standard system in the first place is to prevent these kinds of discrepancies and arguments. It's back to cops and robbers "I shoot you! No you didn't! Yee I did!". The other high spell I've seen user that isn't a save, but rather an ability check, is Maze. Pretty powerful. My group used it to Maze a Balor while they all buffed up. Otto's Dance is another. Seen it once, generally its range is too short to be useful all the time. When your casting DC gets high (17-18) even spells with saves (hold person, hold monster) become deadly as well. A CR20 Fighter without legendary resistances for example, doesn't have a hope in hell of breaking out of a Hold Person at DC19. [/QUOTE]

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