High level NPCs affecting the game world

[Snapdragyn]

Some of Hellcow's responses on the Eberron thread got me to thinking about how high I would like to set NPC levels in my homebrew world. I do see the point of setting things up so that players can be real 'movers & shakers' of their world. However, I'd been thinking of setting max NPC level pretty high, with probably a handful of epic level NPCs of each of the core classes scattered across the world (both 'known' & 'unknown' regions). Although I'm not yet into the stage of creating these characters & fleshing them out, my general idea is to keep them from being too involved with the players by having them be involved in broader concerns (such as inter-planar strife), or wrapped up in their own quests for immortality &/or divinity.

So... how do you deal with the 'uberest' NPCs in your campaign? Limit NPC level, keep high level NPCs busy with 'broader' problems, transform high NPCs into gods or demigods (& ship them off to another plane in the process), what?

 

[reiella]

Some of Hellcow's responses on the Eberron thread got me to thinking about how high I would like to set NPC levels in my homebrew world. I do see the point of setting things up so that players can be real 'movers & shakers' of their world. However, I'd been thinking of setting max NPC level pretty high, with probably a handful of epic level NPCs of each of the core classes scattered across the world (both 'known' & 'unknown' regions). Although I'm not yet into the stage of creating these characters & fleshing them out, my general idea is to keep them from being too involved with the players by having them be involved in broader concerns (such as inter-planar strife), or wrapped up in their own quests for immortality &/or divinity.

So... how do you deal with the 'uberest' NPCs in your campaign? Limit NPC level, keep high level NPCs busy with 'broader' problems, transform high NPCs into gods or demigods (& ship them off to another plane in the process), what?

Pretty much, I have them more concerned with their own goals.

Although they aren't necessarily always broader problems, they can be quite personal (as is typical amongst the professors of the wizard's guild).

They occasionally 'meddle'/'help out'/'lead'/'outshine' the party when their goals come parallel (or are in fact the same), although I do perfer to keep those to a minimum (but still have them occur occasionally).

I don't really limit NPC levels; however, they follow the same rules as everyone else in terms of breaking the Mortal Boundary and the Immortal Boundary. Those boundaries can typically lead to the NPC levels being effectively capped (at 20 / 30 respectively), but the PCs are similarly capped.

Most often, it's just a matter of considering what the NPC has done to get to that level, and follow through with that. A fair number of epic NPCs, I can imagine just wanting to live the quiet life after going through so many trials.

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

In my home campaign, I didn't deal with the Ueberest NPCs at all. However, there were a number of NPCs who were of higher level than the PCs.

The Earl's court wizard, the retired mercenary leader of a merchant company, the orc warleader who rescued the party from another tribe of orcs, the ogre champion of that orc tribe (in my campaign, ogres were a kind of mutant orc that were sometimes produced by the magical energies of the lands the orcs lived in), the bishop of the local fiefdom, and a few adventurers whom the PCs interacted with (most notably a paladin and a sorceror).

These NPCs came into the story in various capacities. The orc who initially rescued the PCs negotiated with the cleric to heal his injured warriors. Later, the PCs heard a few scattered stories about how he had left his tribe on a quest. The court wizard was the source of several plots as he faked his death and then used the PCs to draw out and defeat the bad guys who were manipulating the earl. The paladin joined the party for a short time and accompanied them on an adventure (well, actually, they accompanied him since it was his suggestion (the PCs saw my plot hook and swallowed the whole line and sinker as well)). He was approximately the same level as the PCs though and worked quite well with them. (He also served as a means to introduce another PC to the group). The sorceror was significantly more powerful than the PCs but he didn't hang around for very long. He fought one or two battles at their side and then continued on his way (he had a quest that could not brook as much delay as the PCs' quest would require). The leader of the merchant company served as a villain operating in the background--the untouchable villain whom the PCs desperately wanted to defeat but could never find a proper excuse for doing so. (For that matter, they would have failed if they'd tried--he was a good deal more powerful than them).

On the whole, I think the reason that they all worked without making the PCs feel insignificant was that none of them accomplished the PCs' tasks (well except the sorceror who won one fight for them but they asked him to). The rest of them created challenges for the PCs or simply cleared the way for them to defeat the challenges they wanted to defeat. (For instance, the court wizard dispelled a demon's polymorph ability before a courtroom full of PCs and onlookers--affording the PCs a chance to cut the villain down).

 

[jester47]

Levels are an interesting concept, and I think that the concept of levels is one of the hardest things to reconcile with believability in D&D. When I think about levels as a concept and how they are supposed to work, I think about fridgeworld. I use fridge world because it is so far from the fantasy tropes that we are acustomed to that you can then see the mechanics clearly. Fridgeworld simply a world populated by things you would find in your fridge. Katsup, old pizza, banana pudding, apple, jam, lunchmeat, etc. If banana is 12th level and apple is 5th level, banana is gonna kick apple's butt. If they have the same levels there is a pretty well matched fight. Assuming the rotten class and the paragon of freshness class are balanced.

When we look at it this way, we find out that levels are largely relative to the player characters. Anything that is supposed to be dealt with later has a higher level than the player characters. The more immediate the threat, the closer to the level + 4 range the situation gets. Of course the players can break this by directly confronting the high level NPCs right away, but this ussually hurts.

So in short, when thinking about apple vs. banana, think about how long you want it to take before they have the final showdown, or how long you want to wait until apple and banana are considered equal. Then fill the space with appropriate adventure. The problem is that what happens when the NPC is too powerful or not powerful enough for the adventure alotted between the introduciton of said chaacter and the characters equivalency. Basicly a good DM can balance this. To use FR, when the characters reach near epic levels is when they actually start haveing conversations with Elminster. If they start at level 1 and in three weeks of game play are at level 20 and dealing with Elm, then you have what is called a munchkin game. If you start at level 20 and introduce Elm in fairly short order you may have a munchkin game but you also might have a serious roleplay thing going on. Or you may have the characters start off at 1 and the super evil powerful wizard they have to defeat is...


Level 5.


And it takes sessions and sessions to get to him. This may be a little bit too slow for some.

So the BIG lesson here is that Levels essentially are a tool for pacing players characters WRT story development. The levels of your Uber NPCs are relative to the type of game you want to run. I would wager that hack and slash worksbest when the PCs are lower level than thier aversaries. You really can't do anything but roleplay when you are more powerful than the adversaries (well you can but the fun is in the roleplay rather than the fighting).

The problem that I have with levels is that as level increases so must the challenge to keep the game interesting. And this sort of takes away in the realism of the situation. I think it adds a level of complexity that does not need to be there. Heck I mean in Lord of the Rings even Gandalf runs from Orcs. Elminster on the other hand does not need to.

Aside from Gurps is there a system that does not use levels? A levelless d20 would be interesting.

Aaron.

 

[Dirigible]

Aside from Gurps is there a system that does not use levels?

Most of them.

 

[Beale Knight]

So... how do you deal with the 'uberest' NPCs in your campaign? Limit NPC level, keep high level NPCs busy with 'broader' problems, transform high NPCs into gods or demigods (& ship them off to another plane in the process), what?

I simply don't use them. The highest level NPCs (the humaniod ones anyway - but that's a whole 'nother story) in my campaign hover around 10th level and not only are they very very few in number, they're all either too old or too busy to go adventuring for more levels and what not.

This was designed from the start to let the PCs outshine the NPCs in power and level and ability, but not right away. After six sessions, the PCs are right in the middle of third level.

There are certainly enough adversaries in the world to keep the PCs busy when they get to the higher levels, especially if they decide to forgo the usual adventuring life and opt for conquering and ruling. Either way, it's simple enough to have some higher or equal level NPCs come onto the stage when needed. The PCs aren't necessarily the only ones out there adventuring and gaining levels. Having a rival group or two of NPCs that are slightly more powerful than the PCs, and that have conflicting goals, can make for some wonderful game set-ups.

 

[Beale Knight]

Aside from Gurps is there a system that does not use levels? A levelless d20 would be interesting.
Aaron.

TORG comes right to mind.

 

[Kweezil]

Train of thought warning..

As any of my players would gladly tell you, I tend to set some NPC levels higher than average in my homebrew campaign world. Not to the level of some people's image of FR, for example, but there are still a few lvl.30+ characters out there. The majority of them stay to the shadows, with their own concerns and problems to deal with, one is building a secret organisation vaguely inspired by the Harpers, while another is quietly leading heroes to adventure so someone actually becomes powerful enough to kill him.

Players like to feel that their characters are important, but in many cases it ruins with the sembance of realism in D&D that they're the ultimate power in the world. After playing Planescape, I've found that the knowledge that there's always something bigger than you, if you look hard enough, makes players a little more restrained and a bit more in line with leterary fantasy heroes, and it's the same in almost every modern or SF RPG.

None of this is designed to make the PCs any less the stars of the show. When it comes down to the bottom line, they're the heroes, they're the people who have to save the world because they're the ones in the right place at the right time.

 

[kigmatzomat]

how do you deal with the 'uberest' NPCs in your campaign? Limit NPC level, keep high level NPCs busy with 'broader' problems, transform high NPCs into gods or demigods (& ship them off to another plane in the process), what?

Mmmm. Most have their own agendas, usually something personal or at least something they consider worthwhile. The only real archmage in my game world is trying to build a suitable college of wizards to break the hold religion has on arcane magic. Various way-powerful forces, mainly dragons, are more concerned with internal power struggles where the "mere mortals" are playing pieces. One very potent undead paladin is trying to find a way to be useful without becoming the target of a witch-hunt or treated as a freak. The religions are in crisis thanks to the emergence of new-old gods and the whole religious and even governmental system is threatened by an impending religious war.

During times where NPCs aren't asking/calling in favors, the players pick and choose which notable events they wish to be involved with. The rest of the time, well, the oracles refer to the PCs as "catalysts" triggering events much larger than you might otherwise expect.

 

[jester47]

Its interesting, I realised just after writing that last bit that class and level go hand in hand.

I was thinking that it would not be too hard to retool D&D to work without levels and classes. But it would be a very different game. But I think it would be very interesting.

Simply put, all you would have to do is replace XP with some kind of character development point. Points can be spent at any time but would require the proper training. At character creation every character gets somthing like 20 points. Humans get extra development points. at character creation you can spend points for skills, saves, feats, SAs and SQs available to 1st level characters, and HD is always 1 and you cant adjust ability stats. After the game starts one can spend development points on any part the character wishes. HD, skills, SQs and SAs available to normal classes, BAB, feats, saves, stat increases. Each one only costs 1 dev point.

Spells, instead of being level based are determined by your rank in spellcraft. Each rank in spellcraft acts as a 1st level spell slot. A spell takes up a number of slots equall to its level. Sorcerers permanently learn the spells they pick just like normal. This will make some characters have some very powerful spells at the start of the game, but they will only get them once per day. No skill can have more than four ranks. But this makes up for the fact that characters would no longer get extra skill ranks for high int.

I think you would get some really wild characters and it might seem unbalanced. However when you look at it, a character that sinks tons of points into dex and archery feats is going to be retarded in other areas. It sort of brings to mind what would happen if someone got past his defences. low saves, low hp, etc etc.

Anyways, it is an interesting thought. I think I might toy around with it a little once I am free to do so.

Aaron.