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Message: <blockquote data-quote="s/LaSH" data-source="post: 929643" data-attributes="member: 6929">It might not, to a logical modern person, but that's not what we're talking about - we're talking about people in a pseudomedieval society. This is based upon a historical order in which you fought, you prayed or you toiled, and to break the mould was to rebel against God. And this was the enlightened civilisation that ours evolved from! Most D&D societies are pantheistic, and let's face it, historical pantheisms aren't exactly... well, the Greeks could have created devices to do their labour for them, but they decided not to because they couldn't figure out what to do with the slaves. These are people who used energy weapons, right? (The parabolic mirror system. I think. Haven't read much on this.) Their elitism wasn't reinforced by people who actually had abilities far and away in advance of anyone else (sure, they idolised the Hero, but they didn't have any wandering around their cities at the same time as their great philosophers).I don't know how much of this carries over into fantasy cultures, but if I were in a society where everyone had their place and my place involved hurling fireballs around, I'd certainly regard the system as just and enlightened.  On the other hand, the elite became elite by risking their lives (or the lives of their ancestors). They're warriors - people who go out to kill stuff because it's what they do. Suddenly they're not allowed to do that anymore and they're supposed to be comfortable with that? No wonder they devolved into corrupt layabouts in our history. In a paradigm where a 10th level mage can take half a dozen musket blasts before collapsing (according to the DMG), all the while firing off mass destruction spells, I don't think this suppression is going to be as effective.Valid points, of course. Enlightened civilisation is simple selfishness - something I've been saying for years. Anyway, these are points in favour of advancement. The question is, Will the desire to have 'one meelion vassals' outweigh the desire to be strategically viable? Don't underestimate megalomania, especially in an environment designed to foster it.I believe Edison also farmed a large number of innovators and claimed many of their successes as his own. I'm not sure how many of those innovators were upper-class. True, without upper-class funding they'd never have come up with the lightbulb or direct current power grids (ahem), but it was lower-class innovation that did all that.Thus arguing counter to my above points, of course. It'll probably be the little people who come up with the technologies needed to overthrow magical elite. Heh.Your point being, perhaps, that elites inadvertently accelerate technology (thus lower-class empowerment) through their own research. It'll happen, of course, but how fast?Of course they are. Whether they tell anyone how to make them, thus invalidating their own position of influence, is another matter. Personal prestige is very important in a class system. The wizard is intelligent by definition, and might not give out the secrets of this 'technology' for a while.Eventually it will leak out. Technological progress is inevitable, I don't think anyone can argue counter to that. But how fast it goes depends on how much the elites decide to give out, and I don't think they want to give out too much.Oh, and near-slave labour is only a bad thing if you're not using mindless undead. Think about it.Not as effective, though. Not a bad idea, but the simple fact that an officer can do 5d6 down a huge line of troops and a musketeer can do, what, 2d6 (? DMG stats not to hand) to one target - that's elitism all over again.Now to make a separate point: Dwarves (under D&D rules) seem to hate magic. Look at their racial bonuses to saves, then their industrious nature, and tell me that they're not going to be first in line for the industrial revolution. This isn't my idea, but it's a good one. A race/culture that doesn't rely so much on magic will probably be the first to break the shackles of mystic elitism.(Break the shackles... I sound like some short revolutionary waving a burning elven flag. Heh.)</blockquote>

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