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<blockquote data-quote="nnms" data-source="post: 5283023" data-attributes="member: 83293">First of all, I think the thing that needs to be gotten rid of to making sand box gaming work in 4E is that the notion of level appropriate encounters is somehow bad or not appropriate.Monsters can be scaled up and down in level so easily that it really should be a non issue.&nbsp; Just print yourself a handy reference from the DMG about leveling monsters and the new revised damage charts and go with it.&nbsp; If they're level 4 and they come across something that by the MM is a level 12 monster, just make it a lower level.&nbsp; If you DM with a laptop handy, it's so easy to use the monster builder, select the monster, edit it and just click it's level down.In 4E, level is more about pacing than power increases.&nbsp; You may get additional powers to choose from, but the monster's defenses, hit points and damage output generally scale with your party.&nbsp; You may be rolling to-hit numbers that are 5 higher, but the monster's defenses are also 5 higher, so it's a wash.You can still have monsters that are beyond them.&nbsp; Just start any encounter with such a create with a monster knowledge check.&nbsp; You tell the players how dangerous these creatures are.&nbsp; The first time in my games I did that, the players ignored it.&nbsp; Then in the monster's turn when I asked &quot;does a 38 hit your will defense?&quot; they got the clue, really, really quickly.&nbsp; Now if I say something like &quot;You can't help feeling a bit of fear as you look upon the creature.&nbsp; You're pretty sure that if it gets a lucky bite, it can bit you in half in a single attack&quot; they listen.&nbsp; Same with, &quot;It's hide looks so thick and scaly that you doubt your best attack would ever even scratch it.&quot;Just don't let the players commit to combat against superior creatures without first telling them how dangerous it looks.&nbsp; The only reason to have a three hour slog is if you didn't communicate to them the reality of the situation.Also, there's nothing wrong with ending a combat a round or two into it.&nbsp; You inform them that combat is over, that they don't realistically have a chance to win and that it's time for a skill challenge to escape the creatures.&nbsp; Failure means that the creatures chase them somewhere they don't want to be.&nbsp; Success means they get away.&nbsp; I don't know of too many groups of players that are going to yell &quot;we can take them!&quot; after a couple of experience of huge to-hit rolls, monster knowledge checks telling them clearly they can't win and even the DM ending combat early and explicitly telling them that running is their only option.There's just no reason to grind away for three hours.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="nnms, post: 5283023, member: 83293"] First of all, I think the thing that needs to be gotten rid of to making sand box gaming work in 4E is that the notion of level appropriate encounters is somehow bad or not appropriate. Monsters can be scaled up and down in level so easily that it really should be a non issue. Just print yourself a handy reference from the DMG about leveling monsters and the new revised damage charts and go with it. If they're level 4 and they come across something that by the MM is a level 12 monster, just make it a lower level. If you DM with a laptop handy, it's so easy to use the monster builder, select the monster, edit it and just click it's level down. In 4E, level is more about pacing than power increases. You may get additional powers to choose from, but the monster's defenses, hit points and damage output generally scale with your party. You may be rolling to-hit numbers that are 5 higher, but the monster's defenses are also 5 higher, so it's a wash. You can still have monsters that are beyond them. Just start any encounter with such a create with a monster knowledge check. You tell the players how dangerous these creatures are. The first time in my games I did that, the players ignored it. Then in the monster's turn when I asked "does a 38 hit your will defense?" they got the clue, really, really quickly. Now if I say something like "You can't help feeling a bit of fear as you look upon the creature. You're pretty sure that if it gets a lucky bite, it can bit you in half in a single attack" they listen. Same with, "It's hide looks so thick and scaly that you doubt your best attack would ever even scratch it." Just don't let the players commit to combat against superior creatures without first telling them how dangerous it looks. The only reason to have a three hour slog is if you didn't communicate to them the reality of the situation. Also, there's nothing wrong with ending a combat a round or two into it. You inform them that combat is over, that they don't realistically have a chance to win and that it's time for a skill challenge to escape the creatures. Failure means that the creatures chase them somewhere they don't want to be. Success means they get away. I don't know of too many groups of players that are going to yell "we can take them!" after a couple of experience of huge to-hit rolls, monster knowledge checks telling them clearly they can't win and even the DM ending combat early and explicitly telling them that running is their only option. There's just no reason to grind away for three hours. [/QUOTE]

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