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<blockquote data-quote="Galloglaich" data-source="post: 5007370" data-attributes="member: 77019"><p>Ah, now you are talking some interesting stuff!</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>That sounds like a pretty good adventure hook getting going right there <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite1" alt=":)" title="Smile :)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":)" /> I could definitely see a scenario like this happen back "in the day", with a couple of minor caveats. </p><p></p><p>Yes or any decent sized church, or almost any University... most educated people in fact were taught Latin in this period I believe. Like I said, Latin was the international language of Europe in this period, just as the Church was the international administrator, at least until the Reformation.</p><p></p><p>Anyway you bring up some fascinating points, I hope you will forgive me if I take this and run with it a little, it's a good opportunity to explore this (to me) fascinating time and place.</p><p></p><p>A scenario of Germany spying on Italy per se, might be a little unlikely, if only because neither Germany or Italy existed as such in this period. Northern Italy circa 1300 - 1600 was a series of powerful independent city-states plus the secular state (and Army) of the Vatican. The big players were Venice, (which had the most powerful navy in the Med, possibly the World), Milan, then as now the fashion center of Europe (except they were making their most popular designs in iron) Florence, Pisa, Genoa, Brescia, Bologna and Rome and the Papal States. Southern Italy was the property at various times of the Normans, the Arabs, the Spanish, etc.</p><p></p><p>This was an interesting period, different from what most people think of for the Middle Ages. The Renaissance was in full swing in Italy by 1400 AD (it would reach Germany in another 30 or 40 years, it didn't get to France or England for nearly a Century) art and arcitecture were blooming, most city-dwelling people in Northern Italy were pretty well educated, 1/3 of the population was estimated to be literate.</p><p></p><p><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_city-states" target="_blank">Italian city-states - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia</a></p><p></p><p>The Italian cities won independance from the HRE as early as the rather amazing Battle of Legano in 1167 when, allied with the pope, the Lombard League (a group of 20 cities) defeated the formidable German Emperor Frederick Barbarosa.</p><p></p><p><img src="http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/1c/BattagliaLegnano.jpg/589px-BattagliaLegnano.jpg" alt="" class="fr-fic fr-dii fr-draggable " style="" /></p><p></p><p><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lombard_League" target="_blank">Lombard League - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia</a></p><p><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Legnano" target="_blank">Battle of Legnano - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia</a></p><p></p><p>"Greater Germany" if you will was the Holy Roman Empire, which some people like to point out was neither Holy, nor Roman, nor an Empire. It was a fairly loose amalgum of Princely states, ruled by the so-called electors (powerful barons and dukes), plus powerful free cities like in Italy (particularly the Hanseatic towns in the north such as Hamburg, Cologne, Liepzig, Danzig, Frankfurt etc.) which were designated as 'Imperial Free Cities' and made their own laws, effectively independent or rebel zones like Switzerland (cities like Berne and Basel), Holland / the Low Countries (Amsterdam, Antwerp, Brussles etc.), Bohemia (Prague) etc., wild frontiers like Poland, Hungary, and the Balkans (threatened by the ominous Turk), and a certain amount of territory genuinely under the control of the Emperor, which varied depending on which family was ascendant at any given moment.</p><p></p><p>It's also worth noting that the Martial Arts in these Fechtbucher, were not so much military secrets (though they had some military value) they were more for individual combat. The property of Martial arts schools, in fact we know for certain that the two most prominent martial arts schools of Renaissance Germany, the Marxbruder of Frankfurt and the Federfechter of Prague, were actually fierce rivals. I could imagine a cool DnD game where you had kind of a film noire or Western vibe featuring rival fencing schools, almost exactly like you see in your better Samurai films from the 60's. </p><p></p><p>That said, there could have easily also been more serious rivalries between individual lords, or groups or factions of lords, and / or various cities. Florence and Milan were constant rivals for example and always at war. The Emperor and the Pope were always scheming, and the King of France was known to stray into Italy on a military adventure now and then. More strategic value than martial arts manuals would be books on siege warfare, artillery or say, pike drill. The most popular manual in this period was an old Roman siege warfare book called De Re Militari, by Vegetius.</p><p></p><p><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_Re_Militari" target="_blank">De Re Militari - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia</a></p><p></p><p>But that said, individual martial arts were still important. Skill in individual combat was critical for knights, men at arms and Chevaliers, was also emphasized by the Swiss and a swordsman certified by one of the fencing guilds like the Marxbruder or the Federfechter could draw double pay in a Lansknecht or Condottieri company, as a so called "Dopplesoldner". This was one of the reasons competition was so fierce among the fencing schools. There was money in it. </p><p></p><p>Very good point. </p><p></p><p>Military secrets were encrypted in this era, just like today. There was a lively culture of encryption of documents back then almost like how all important documents are encrypted on the internet. Cyphers in the Renaissance were incredibly sophisticated, I have seen some Grimoires which had cyphers three or even four layers deep, if you can imagine that. So a book on etiquette is, when de-cyphered, actually a book on astrology, which, if de-cyphered, is actually a book on mnemonics, which if de-cyphered, is a book on strait up black magic. Often parts of books would be encrypted this way, or sometimes a whole book. Read up on some of Giodorno Bruno or John Dee's works for example. </p><p></p><p>To aid them in this kind of work, they might use an ingenius invention like the cypher wheel.</p><p></p><p><a href="http://www.cypherwheel.com/" target="_blank">CypherWheel-Home</a></p><p></p><p><img src="http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:79AxF7_kOfdZ1M:http://www.cypherwheel.com/rightsidewheel.jpg" alt="" class="fr-fic fr-dii fr-draggable " style="" /></p><p></p><p>See the neat thing about the Renaissance was that there were geniuses running around practically everywhere...</p><p></p><p>Leon is an exceptional example, in fact he definitely belongs on my "Dilbert in the Dungeon" list, he was the classic example of the true Renaissance Man.</p><p></p><p><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leon_Battista_Alberti" target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leon_Battista_Alberti</a></p><p></p><p>Of course, it was quite common. Robber - knights, bandits, pirates, steppe raiders etc. were a major problem in many parts of the HRE.</p><p></p><p>They may not have thought it was evil at all. Remember there were many military orders in this period, martial arts practiced in Monasteries is nothing new, think of the Far-East, and all those Samurai movies again <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite2" alt=";)" title="Wink ;)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=";)" /></p><p></p><p>In fact sometimes the Monks themselves were the aggressors. Abbots were often lords in every sense.</p><p></p><p>Again, of course, there are many documented cases of this, both on an innocent and not - so - innnocent level, both on a large and small scale. </p><p></p><p></p><p>This is hotly debated in the HEMA community, but the text does specifically refer to her as a Woman. She appears only in certain parts of the text, but the I.33 has been associated with St. Walpurgia. </p><p></p><p>I suspect it was just a girl they were hanging around with. Could have been somebodies sister or somebodies daughter, or it could have been somebodies girlfriend, stranger things have happened. Nothing particularly sinister about it. As you can see in this thread women practicing martial arts and fighting etc. was not exactly unheard of in Medieval Europe.</p><p></p><p></p><p>G.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Galloglaich, post: 5007370, member: 77019"] Ah, now you are talking some interesting stuff! That sounds like a pretty good adventure hook getting going right there :) I could definitely see a scenario like this happen back "in the day", with a couple of minor caveats. Yes or any decent sized church, or almost any University... most educated people in fact were taught Latin in this period I believe. Like I said, Latin was the international language of Europe in this period, just as the Church was the international administrator, at least until the Reformation. Anyway you bring up some fascinating points, I hope you will forgive me if I take this and run with it a little, it's a good opportunity to explore this (to me) fascinating time and place. A scenario of Germany spying on Italy per se, might be a little unlikely, if only because neither Germany or Italy existed as such in this period. Northern Italy circa 1300 - 1600 was a series of powerful independent city-states plus the secular state (and Army) of the Vatican. The big players were Venice, (which had the most powerful navy in the Med, possibly the World), Milan, then as now the fashion center of Europe (except they were making their most popular designs in iron) Florence, Pisa, Genoa, Brescia, Bologna and Rome and the Papal States. Southern Italy was the property at various times of the Normans, the Arabs, the Spanish, etc. This was an interesting period, different from what most people think of for the Middle Ages. The Renaissance was in full swing in Italy by 1400 AD (it would reach Germany in another 30 or 40 years, it didn't get to France or England for nearly a Century) art and arcitecture were blooming, most city-dwelling people in Northern Italy were pretty well educated, 1/3 of the population was estimated to be literate. [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_city-states"]Italian city-states - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/URL] The Italian cities won independance from the HRE as early as the rather amazing Battle of Legano in 1167 when, allied with the pope, the Lombard League (a group of 20 cities) defeated the formidable German Emperor Frederick Barbarosa. [IMG]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/1c/BattagliaLegnano.jpg/589px-BattagliaLegnano.jpg[/IMG] [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lombard_League"]Lombard League - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/URL] [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Legnano"]Battle of Legnano - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/URL] "Greater Germany" if you will was the Holy Roman Empire, which some people like to point out was neither Holy, nor Roman, nor an Empire. It was a fairly loose amalgum of Princely states, ruled by the so-called electors (powerful barons and dukes), plus powerful free cities like in Italy (particularly the Hanseatic towns in the north such as Hamburg, Cologne, Liepzig, Danzig, Frankfurt etc.) which were designated as 'Imperial Free Cities' and made their own laws, effectively independent or rebel zones like Switzerland (cities like Berne and Basel), Holland / the Low Countries (Amsterdam, Antwerp, Brussles etc.), Bohemia (Prague) etc., wild frontiers like Poland, Hungary, and the Balkans (threatened by the ominous Turk), and a certain amount of territory genuinely under the control of the Emperor, which varied depending on which family was ascendant at any given moment. It's also worth noting that the Martial Arts in these Fechtbucher, were not so much military secrets (though they had some military value) they were more for individual combat. The property of Martial arts schools, in fact we know for certain that the two most prominent martial arts schools of Renaissance Germany, the Marxbruder of Frankfurt and the Federfechter of Prague, were actually fierce rivals. I could imagine a cool DnD game where you had kind of a film noire or Western vibe featuring rival fencing schools, almost exactly like you see in your better Samurai films from the 60's. That said, there could have easily also been more serious rivalries between individual lords, or groups or factions of lords, and / or various cities. Florence and Milan were constant rivals for example and always at war. The Emperor and the Pope were always scheming, and the King of France was known to stray into Italy on a military adventure now and then. More strategic value than martial arts manuals would be books on siege warfare, artillery or say, pike drill. The most popular manual in this period was an old Roman siege warfare book called De Re Militari, by Vegetius. [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_Re_Militari"]De Re Militari - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/URL] But that said, individual martial arts were still important. Skill in individual combat was critical for knights, men at arms and Chevaliers, was also emphasized by the Swiss and a swordsman certified by one of the fencing guilds like the Marxbruder or the Federfechter could draw double pay in a Lansknecht or Condottieri company, as a so called "Dopplesoldner". This was one of the reasons competition was so fierce among the fencing schools. There was money in it. Very good point. Military secrets were encrypted in this era, just like today. There was a lively culture of encryption of documents back then almost like how all important documents are encrypted on the internet. Cyphers in the Renaissance were incredibly sophisticated, I have seen some Grimoires which had cyphers three or even four layers deep, if you can imagine that. So a book on etiquette is, when de-cyphered, actually a book on astrology, which, if de-cyphered, is actually a book on mnemonics, which if de-cyphered, is a book on strait up black magic. Often parts of books would be encrypted this way, or sometimes a whole book. Read up on some of Giodorno Bruno or John Dee's works for example. To aid them in this kind of work, they might use an ingenius invention like the cypher wheel. [URL="http://www.cypherwheel.com/"]CypherWheel-Home[/URL] [IMG]http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:79AxF7_kOfdZ1M:http://www.cypherwheel.com/rightsidewheel.jpg[/IMG] See the neat thing about the Renaissance was that there were geniuses running around practically everywhere... Leon is an exceptional example, in fact he definitely belongs on my "Dilbert in the Dungeon" list, he was the classic example of the true Renaissance Man. [URL]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leon_Battista_Alberti[/URL] Of course, it was quite common. Robber - knights, bandits, pirates, steppe raiders etc. were a major problem in many parts of the HRE. They may not have thought it was evil at all. Remember there were many military orders in this period, martial arts practiced in Monasteries is nothing new, think of the Far-East, and all those Samurai movies again ;) In fact sometimes the Monks themselves were the aggressors. Abbots were often lords in every sense. Again, of course, there are many documented cases of this, both on an innocent and not - so - innnocent level, both on a large and small scale. This is hotly debated in the HEMA community, but the text does specifically refer to her as a Woman. She appears only in certain parts of the text, but the I.33 has been associated with St. Walpurgia. I suspect it was just a girl they were hanging around with. Could have been somebodies sister or somebodies daughter, or it could have been somebodies girlfriend, stranger things have happened. Nothing particularly sinister about it. As you can see in this thread women practicing martial arts and fighting etc. was not exactly unheard of in Medieval Europe. G. [/QUOTE]
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