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<blockquote data-quote="Galloglaich" data-source="post: 5007845" data-attributes="member: 77019"><p>I have to disagree with the lecturer, though this is a fairly common perception going back to the 19th Century. To me, by this logic you might think the Soviet Union would have been a hotbed of innovation, or that logically planned economies would thrive more than free markets.</p><p> </p><p>Rome, for all their good roads, was increasingly moribund in the last two or three Centuries of the Empire. There was very little technical innovation of any kind. In fact you might say Augustus was both the first and last effective Emperor, competent ones followed but they were precious few and far between.</p><p> </p><p>In the Meideval period, by this logic, you would think that the Renaissance would have begun in a country like France which had a strong Roman-like centralized government and relatively good infrastructure. But it didn't, it started in totally chaotic northern Italy, in the relatively democratic city-state of Florence precisely around 1380, spread throughout the Po Valley and then into the loosely controlled Holy Roman Empire, specifically into the large independent trading cities of the Hanseatic League. It didn't make it to the Centralized Kingdoms of France, Spain, or England until 1500, more than a Century after it started in Florence (and then with foriegn experts brought in by Kings from Italy and Germany and Flanders etc.).</p><p> </p><p>The efficiency of centralized government and infrastructure seems to be contrasted with the inevitable corruption and stagnation of centralized power - and the chaos of decentralizatoin is contrasted with the innovation that comes from relative degree of freedom. Just as the Free market works better than a planned economy, comparatively free or open political strucutres seem to lead to all kinds of technical, artistic, and even military innovations (look at the Swiss or the Ancient Greeks)</p><p> </p><p></p><p> </p><p>Communication may have been an issue but they had mass production in Europe going back to the 11th Century, when the Cistercian monks spread the technology of the overwash water wheel and the wind-mill. By the Renaissance economic production and trade were <em>thriving</em>, in the 15th Century Milan alone was probably producing more armor than the entire Western Roman Empire was circa 300 - 400 AD.</p><p> </p><p></p><p> </p><p>This is a very interesting point, especially the Buddhist angle. I know the 'Gaelic' Monasteries in Ireland and the British isles in the early Medieval period were more organized more like the Orthodox model, and this wasn't changed until around the 12th Century IIRC.</p><p> </p><p>St Walpurgia is an Irish Saint too I think, perhaps coincidence?</p><p> </p><p></p><p> </p><p>Very interesting, sounds like you know more about cyphers than I do. I think this is a really cool angle for RPGs, especially for your Call of Cthulhu type clues and hand-outs... maybe you could elaborate a little on some ways this can work. I'm also interested in 'cants' etc.</p><p> </p><p></p><p> </p><p>Yes probably, but to a somewhat limited degree - rather like teaching knife fighting to modern Marines, they might do it mostly for morale, it has benefit but somewhat limited. Keep in mind warfare in this era was more about guns, pikes, and cannons than individual heroes contending in one on one duels.</p><p> </p><p>We know most of the fechtbuchs were associated with civilians of the Burgher class, mostly for judicial combat, and with the fencing Guilds, which did have some military overlap. Almost all the manuals teach one on one fighting though.</p><p> </p><p>But there is no doubt the Aristocrats had their own personal fighting systems which were taught in their own courts and castles, and there does appear to be some overlap with the Fechtbuchs, for example Ott Jud was a court martial arts (wrestling) instructor for a German count IIRC.</p><p> </p><p> </p><p></p><p> </p><p>Right back at you man, fascinating discussoin. Later <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite1" alt=":)" title="Smile :)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":)" /></p><p> </p><p>G.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Galloglaich, post: 5007845, member: 77019"] I have to disagree with the lecturer, though this is a fairly common perception going back to the 19th Century. To me, by this logic you might think the Soviet Union would have been a hotbed of innovation, or that logically planned economies would thrive more than free markets. Rome, for all their good roads, was increasingly moribund in the last two or three Centuries of the Empire. There was very little technical innovation of any kind. In fact you might say Augustus was both the first and last effective Emperor, competent ones followed but they were precious few and far between. In the Meideval period, by this logic, you would think that the Renaissance would have begun in a country like France which had a strong Roman-like centralized government and relatively good infrastructure. But it didn't, it started in totally chaotic northern Italy, in the relatively democratic city-state of Florence precisely around 1380, spread throughout the Po Valley and then into the loosely controlled Holy Roman Empire, specifically into the large independent trading cities of the Hanseatic League. It didn't make it to the Centralized Kingdoms of France, Spain, or England until 1500, more than a Century after it started in Florence (and then with foriegn experts brought in by Kings from Italy and Germany and Flanders etc.). The efficiency of centralized government and infrastructure seems to be contrasted with the inevitable corruption and stagnation of centralized power - and the chaos of decentralizatoin is contrasted with the innovation that comes from relative degree of freedom. Just as the Free market works better than a planned economy, comparatively free or open political strucutres seem to lead to all kinds of technical, artistic, and even military innovations (look at the Swiss or the Ancient Greeks) Communication may have been an issue but they had mass production in Europe going back to the 11th Century, when the Cistercian monks spread the technology of the overwash water wheel and the wind-mill. By the Renaissance economic production and trade were [I]thriving[/I], in the 15th Century Milan alone was probably producing more armor than the entire Western Roman Empire was circa 300 - 400 AD. This is a very interesting point, especially the Buddhist angle. I know the 'Gaelic' Monasteries in Ireland and the British isles in the early Medieval period were more organized more like the Orthodox model, and this wasn't changed until around the 12th Century IIRC. St Walpurgia is an Irish Saint too I think, perhaps coincidence? Very interesting, sounds like you know more about cyphers than I do. I think this is a really cool angle for RPGs, especially for your Call of Cthulhu type clues and hand-outs... maybe you could elaborate a little on some ways this can work. I'm also interested in 'cants' etc. Yes probably, but to a somewhat limited degree - rather like teaching knife fighting to modern Marines, they might do it mostly for morale, it has benefit but somewhat limited. Keep in mind warfare in this era was more about guns, pikes, and cannons than individual heroes contending in one on one duels. We know most of the fechtbuchs were associated with civilians of the Burgher class, mostly for judicial combat, and with the fencing Guilds, which did have some military overlap. Almost all the manuals teach one on one fighting though. But there is no doubt the Aristocrats had their own personal fighting systems which were taught in their own courts and castles, and there does appear to be some overlap with the Fechtbuchs, for example Ott Jud was a court martial arts (wrestling) instructor for a German count IIRC. Right back at you man, fascinating discussoin. Later :) G. [/QUOTE]
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