Hit Dice, Undead, Templates, and Savage Species - Once and for all now

[Alzrius]

Okay, so, I finally managed to get a copy of Savage Species from a game shop in Shinjuku, and was reading it this morning.

Now, from what I read in, iirc, chapter 11, there are three ways a template can affect hit dice.

Type A doesn't change the base creature's hit dice in any way, shape, or form (i.e. Celestial).

Type B only alters a base creature's natural hit dice, not any gained from any sort of class levels (i.e. Half-Dragon).

Type C alters all of the base creature's hit dice, natural, class, or whatever, and further hit dice gained later are also changed by this template (i.e. Lich).

Now, given that every template example it lists for type C (again iirc) was undead, does that mean that undead always use d12 for hit dice, regardless of anything else? Would a ghoul (a non-template undead in this case) with cleric levels gain d12's for those cleric levels?

 

[Desdinova]

Nope, not always.

It depends on where you look.
If you look at the Emancipated Spawn example in SS, you will see that she is a 4th level sorcerer. In her hit point breakdown, it includes 4d4 for the levels in Sorcerer.

For my own personal use, unless there is good reason to, or unless the template says so explicitly or by example, an undead that gains class levels uses the class Hit Die. (And even then I sometimes house rule it that way).

It appears to me that different writers use different criteria on the topic. In some cases you might see an undead with class levels using all d12's and in other cases using d12's only for the creature's HD and class dice for classes. Sometimes it's hard to tell, since in a lot of cases the examples used are "monsters" with no class levels and therefore little means of determining.

 

[Piratecat]

There's a good logistical reason to use all d12s; with no con score, undead crumple pretty darn quickly if you use the appropriate hit die for their class level. I suppose that a purist would say that every class level gained AFTER becoming an undead should be the correct hit die for the class level, but I don't think I'd do that.

 

[dravot]

There's a good logistical reason to use all d12s; with no con score, undead crumple pretty darn quickly if you use the appropriate hit die for their class level. I suppose that a purist would say that every class level gained AFTER becoming an undead should be the correct hit die for the class level, but I don't think I'd do that.

That's just because you're a rat bastard DM. As a player with a hunter of the dead character, I'd heartily recommend that all undead use d4 for hit dice, but that's just me.

 

[Destil]

Just wanted to agree with PC that undead should always have all the HD as d12s, though I bet my player with his pre-Hunter of the Dead palidin would side with dravot.

 

[WizarDru]

That's just because you're a rat bastard DM. As a player with a hunter of the dead character, I'd heartily recommend that all undead use d4 for hit dice, but that's just me.

You're just saying that 'cuz you're grandfather's a BBEG with levels in cleric and wizard.

 

[Piratecat]

Aw, come on, Dravot - you wouldn't want to be underchallenged, yould you?

 

[dravot]

I think that Dravot would much rather live in a world where undead can be knocked over with a feather

It wouldn't be as much of a challenge for me as a player though, I do admit.

If I were a rat bastard DM, I'd go with the d12 for undead as well.

Oh, and I really enjoy watching Malachite in your story hour, comparing him professionally with my character as hunter of the dead.

 

[Alzrius]

It appears to me that different writers use different criteria on the topic. In some cases you might see an undead with class levels using all d12's and in other cases using d12's only for the creature's HD and class dice for classes. Sometimes it's hard to tell, since in a lot of cases the examples used are "monsters" with no class levels and therefore little means of determining.

So basically, the answer here is that there is no real answer yet?

The way it seems to be now is that Undead fall into two camps:

Template Undead, which we know from Savage Species use d12 for all hit dice, regardless of type, and

Non-template Undead, which use normal hit dice for a character class.

Oi, this needs to be resolved. C'mon 3.5E!