Upgrade your account to a Community Supporter account and remove most of the site ads.

Reply to thread

Message: <blockquote data-quote="Kobold Stew" data-source="post: 2278156" data-attributes="member: 23484">Thanks.  first off, no, there is no 1-for-1 race; I was suggesting an alternate meachanism that also is not used.Your list is interesting, Infinity, but it shows me that we're not quite on the same page. Compare 2 hit dice to two class levels (pick a class, any class; the NPC baseline warrior is a fair measure). Points 1, 2, 5, 6, 8, and 11 are exactly as it would be with two class levels in a generic class. There is nothing exceptional here, and the PC loses benefits from being in a non-generic class. But I think this is important: the 11 hit points (e.g., and the feat, and the save) are NOT a benefit associated with feats--they are EXACTLY the hitpoints, feats, saves the character would have from class levels. Instead, hit dice mean that the character does not have access to class skills.Point 7, the imbalanced stats, I agree is worth +1, and is really the only thing that to my mind warrant a +1 LA.This leaves 3 and 4 (darkvision and +1 nat armour). Darkvision is common enough in PC races that it does not in itself warrant any LA (it is given to compensate for the lost feat and skill point of the human). +1 Nat armour is a benefit found in other level-adjusted races and in kobolds. But compare the (supposedly equal) Lizard folk who get +5 nat armour. To me there is no comparison here.As for skillpoints, again, I think I'm just missing sommething.  Here's an analysis I posted last September"Thinking about it, we can truly measure what the system does to monsters with hit dice: Cases 1 and 2 represent optimized gnolls, with and without class levels.case 1. 14 Int Gnoll-- 2d8 +1 LA = ECL 3maximum number of skill points: 15feats: 1case 2. 14 Int gnoll-- 2d8 +1 LA +1 ranger (preferred class) = ECL 4maximum number of skill points: 23feats: 2 + track = 3Case 3 represents the fewest number of skill points I can get with a one hit die monster, which is NINE skill points more than the best equivalent gnoll. Case 4 represents an average ranger (race chosen because it receives no skill bonuses; both races have -2 Int penalty). case 3. 14 int half-orc 3rd level sorc = ECL 3 (the worst I can imagine)maximum number of skill points: 24.feats: 1 case 4. 14 Int half-orc 4th level ranger = ECL 4maximum number of skill points: 56feats: 2 + track + endurance + weap spec. = 5The worst case one-die monster beats the best gnoll by 3 points/level at ECL 3.The best gnoll in his preferred class will always be down 33 skill points and will always be behind in feats on any smaller race."Plus, with only two skills, there is no good way to spend any extra skill points if the char has an INT of at least 12 (which it needs to speak Common!). So, let's drop the intelligence:(an adapted follow-up)(we'll now assume Int 10 characters)case 1: best case (= average) Gnoll-- 2d8 = ECL 3maximum number of skill points (i.e. no cc-skills): 10feats: 1Analysis: this is marginally worse than the worst-case ECL 3 player race:10 int half-orc 3rd level sorc = ECL 3maximum number of skill points: 12.feats: 1 So... Balance!(?) Except...case 2: gnoll with 2d8 +1 ranger (preferred class) = ECL 4maximum number of skill points: 16feats: 2 + track = 3Analysis: this is 38 skill points behind a 3rd level ranger:10 Int half-orc 4th level ranger = ECL 4maximum number of skill points: 54feats: 1 + track + combat style + endurance. = 4That gap will never close.(obviously we can make the half-orc anything else, and he ends up with feats or spellcasting, or whatever) My point is, just on skill points, there is a HUGE loss.CONCLUSIONWhat I get from all this is that most of your list is not relevant. Great stat bonuses on the one hand, yes, vs. always terrible skills, two suboptimal levels, +1 Nat armour, and darkvision. I'm not trying to be a jerk, here. I do appreciate your help.Maybe I'll take up IcyCool's suggestion, but I've gone on long enough for now.Thanks, all, for reading.</blockquote>

Verification