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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Finley DaDum" data-source="post: 2278183" data-attributes="member: 30376">You seem to be saying by all this that a gnoll gets the two racial HD for free, this is not the case he has these instead of 2 levels in a class, on way of thinking of this is gnolls are required to start play with 2 levels in the class GNOLL: MONSTROUS HUMANIOD.  A starting gnoll character is ECL 4 with 2 levels in gnoll, and one other level.  You are weighing all the benifits of the racial HD as if they were included with the LA+1, when they are the poison pill that a gnoll has to swallow to go with the abilities they get as an LA+1.  You have to compare the Gnoll HD to 2 levels of a class to get a good picture, lets use their favored class of ranger. 1. 2HD - a wash here the ranger gets 2HD and the same kind d8s.2. Well 11 HP is actually what an average gnoll gets, a PC gnoll would receive 8 for his 1st HD and 4.5 for his 2nd this is equal of course to what a ranger would receive.3. +1 Natural Armor (this is part of the LA+1 abilities)4. Darkvision (LA+1 ability)5. Fort save +3, ranger gets that and Reflex save +36. Power Attack, actually they are not required to take this the feats in the MM are just what the average example of that species would have, every PC starts with a feat at 1st level so this is a wash.7. Ability adjustments (again these are part of their LA+1)8. BAB +1, Ranger gets BA+2 9. Gnoll racial skills-Spot and Listen 2 total, ranger list encompasses 20 skills not counting craft skills.10. Gnoll gets 2 skill pts per level and get burned by having to take their 1st class level in a class with only 2 skill pts, over 2 levels the gnoll with average Int. gets 10 skill pts, a ranger with average Int. gets 30 skill pts. 11. Automatic Language: Gnoll (This is part of their LA+1) In everything that wasnt part of their LA the gnolls racial HD come up well short of what they would recieve for being a ranger. Their LA abilities ammount to:Str+4, Con+2, Int-2, Chr-2Darkvision+1 Natural armor bonusAutomatic Language:Gnoll Bugbears also have an LA+1 and though they have to swallow 1 more racial HD lets see what they get for the same LA. Str+4, Dex+2, Con+2, Chr-2Darkvision+3 Natural armor bonus+4 racial bonus on Move SilentlyAutomatic Languages: Common, Goblin Bugbears get more in every respect and their class skill list though small is much better than the gnolls.</blockquote>

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