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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Rachel" data-source="post: 5096933" data-attributes="member: 88033">A certain realization about Hit Points has been bouncing around in my head for a while now, and I want to put it out there b/c I don't know if I'm on to something, or what? Theory: Humanoid monsters have too many Hit Points. Far too many.Controls: My Gnome fighter vs. some Orcs (a common low-mid lvl foe). Reasoning and "The Math":  Myria at 1st Level has 29 HP (15+14 Con) +5 (Toughness feat) = 34 (sorry powergamers, this is a sub-optimal build b/c gnomes do not favor the fighter class stat-wise and I am not among your kind). By 3rd Level she will have 46 HP (+6/lvl, 2 levels gained) compared to an Orc Raider's (Level 3 Skirmisher) 46 HP. A dead-on tie, and seems fine. When she reaches 4th level, she will have 52 HP vs. the Orc Berserker's (Level 4 Brute) 66. Already she is getting a bit outclassed, considering that--as a fighter--she is very likely to be going directly up against this monster. (Bear in mind, we are looking at one-on-one matchups simply b/c it is assumed that both will have teammates assisting them and factoring what help they may or not be is beyond the scope of this theory). Continuing, a 4th Level Orc encounter as given in the MM (pg. 205) would see two of these Berserkers, along with 2 Raiders and 1 Dire Boar. Assuming their are 5 PCs, it is even odds numerically. Again, Myria is likely to be facing one of these Berserker's dead-on.And as we see, just looking at HP, Myria is "behind the eightball" already. This only gets worse.... By 9th Level, Myria will have 88 HP (after 6/lvl advances). Compare this with the Level 9 Orc Encounter in the MM. The Orc Chieftain (yes, he is an Elite) has a whopping 216 HP! Now, let's say that Myria's four companions managed to mostly neutralize the 8 companions of the Chieftain (as listed in the encounter--that's 2-1 odds but doiable for PC's working together), it is possible that Myria (again, as a fighter) may be asked to tackle the "big guy". In any game, this should be a big challenge, but doable. Again, looking at the HP's of Myria and the Chieftain, it looks next to impossible that she could succeed. (Note: Attacks/Saves and other abilities scale up for both the Orcs and Myria/other PC's, so we are assuming that those are relative equal in terms of capability. Again, we are just looking at HP.) So what you have, in effect, are two combatants who may be relatively equal in most terms. But! With one (the Orc) having such vastly superior HP, it's almost a no-win for our dear gnomie (excluding some amazing luck). It's 88 HP vs. 216 HP!Now, of course if her allies are up to it and can really help out, say make it 3-on-1 vs. the big baddie Chieftain, this evens out. But in an encounter when the group is already outnumbered 9-5 (again, using 5 PC's vs. the Level 9 Orc Encounter as listed in the MM), Myria's friends may not be able to help much and she may herself not be at 100%.  Perhaps if the Orc Chieftain were a "Solo" monster (instead of Elite surrounded by a group of 8 allies) this would be solved. But, that makes less sense, as he is a Chieftain--and an Orc--both of which means he *will* be surrouded by allies.  Sure, their are monsters I expect to have that level of HP at 9th level. But not any humanoid. It comes down to this, really:An Orc, no matter how strong, imposing, and worthy of Orcish leadership, is still just an Orc. Just as a human, no matter how good, is still just a human (and no human makes any sense having such HP--think of fragile we are! even our best warrior can't take a dozen major hits equivalent of damage).  I understand this is a bit simulationist, and takes a bit of the abstraction out of the game. Also, I understand the need for strong challenges at mid-higher levels as the PC levels advance, but a humanoid is still a humanoid---in my mind, they can only be so tough. This applies to most mortal humanoids (not things such as demons, in which high HP make plenty more sense, for example).  I think I have shown where, in strictly HP terms, the "scaling" is way off. Myria should have some chance. Even if the Orc Chieftain only commanded *double* (176 HP) Myria's HP (as opposed to 216) that's still too great a challenge, and probably still too high for any humanoid that is just a normal humanoid. Turn to any humanoid in the MM and study their HP. The Mind Flayer Mastermind (Level 18 Controller) has an astounding 324 HP---for a creature that is basically just a squishy, octopus-based humanoid.  IMHO, you make humanoid monsters fit their XP level not by insane amounts of HP, but by powerful attacks/abilities, huge numerical advantage, and other considerations. The Mind Flayer should just do nasty things (which it does!) but probably should have about a 1/3rd of the listed HP. Their is no way any humanoid, no matter it's beastial roots, can take 324 HP damage worth of hits. It defies logic. (Sorry abstraction!) So, am I way off here thinking that we should totally lower humanoid monster HP to more reasonable amounts, all other things being comparative? Am I on to something or way off? Comments?</blockquote>

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