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*Pathfinder & Starfinder
Hit Points--A study of humanoids.
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<blockquote data-quote="AbdulAlhazred" data-source="post: 5107311" data-attributes="member: 82106"><p>Yes, but this monster is a brute. It has more hit points but it also has weaker defenses and a lower accuracy. In any case you're character has an HS value of 13, so even assuming nothing but Second Wind you have 65 hit points readily available, an action point, a daily power, a magic item daily power use, and possibly other item powers/etc. You also have 2 feats and probably a potion or two. Meanwhile the orc has a 16 point healing power and a basic attack. So yes, its about an even match, and with ANY amount of support from the rest of the party should present no problem.</p><p></p><p>The issue of teamwork unfortunately can't really be put 'beyond the discussion' either. You and your team mates will certain provide each other flanking and other benefits.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Except I find your analysis of the encounter to be wanting. 5 of the 9 combatants are minions and have 1 hit point. The warlock or the wizard or the invoker or the sorcerer etc will likely finish those off in round 1 or maybe some will linger to round 2. So the encounter is effectively 4 orcs, one of which is an elite and thus worth about 2 monsters. A STANDARD monster of level 8 has 108 hit points as a brute. This is quite comparable to the PCs 88 hit points plus 22 point guaranteed available surge healing. The Orc Chieftain does effectively have 270 hit points with its healing but again has modest defenses and fairly low attack numbers.</p><p></p><p>So the answer really is here that you wouldn't fight an Orc Chieftain 1-on-1. You'd maybe hold him off for a round while the other PCs dealt with the minions and got set up to take out the leader. At that point you'd have the assistance of at least 1 other PC all the time. Again cooperation between the PCs will count for a lot and you now have 2 daily powers, 4 encounter powers, and 2 utility powers, plus all your stuff to work with. The Orc has a basic melee attack, a healing power that takes its full standard action for a round, and a recharge power that is useful but not going to shake up the battlefield.</p><p></p><p></p><p>I think the way things work now is basically fine. What would the alternative be? That monsters have much higher defenses and do a lot more damage on every attack. The result of which is that frequently a lucky shot by a monster will KO a PC in one attack. The PCs on the flip side are desperately trying to get high numbers so they hit at all against their difficult foes. Sure each hit counts for a lot more but the battle is much less predictable and thus tactics is devalued in favor of high damage attacks that can be gotten off with the least fuss. In essence you're going back to a 3.x style of combat, though maybe not to the same degree.</p><p></p><p>As far as what is 'realistic' for an orc. Is it that realistic for a gnome to have 88 hit points? Obviously hit points do represent a lot of things besides sheer physical ability to absorb punishment. This has of course been discussed 1000's of times and need not be repeated here. Powerful monsters are powerful because of their mystical nature, training, etc. that gives them the hit points to be able to combat other things of similar levels. The Mind Flayer is far beyond the ability of an orc and thus has a good bit more hit points. If the Orc Chieftain was confronted with the Mind Flayer, he'd most likely either die or yield to its superior power. </p><p></p><p>My advice is to just shed the whole excessive reliance on simulationism entirely. Embrace 4e for what it is, a cinematic RPG of heroes. Really its not even appreciably less simulationist in any practical sense than any other edition of D&D has ever been. None of them are close to simulating reality at all. Its like worrying about something that is 97% unrealistic and comparing it to something that is only 94% unrealistic. Both situations are totally unrealistic. This is the great thing about 4e, the designers realized that and they write things to be fun and exciting. The 216 hit point Orc Chieftain will take some effort to kill, and that is why it has the right hit points. No other reason is necessary. I say all this as a LONG time player that has slowly evolved past the simulationist phase of gaming and into what I would call higher modes of play. Embrace it and you will be enlightened! <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f609.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=";)" title="Wink ;)" data-smilie="2"data-shortname=";)" /></p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="AbdulAlhazred, post: 5107311, member: 82106"] Yes, but this monster is a brute. It has more hit points but it also has weaker defenses and a lower accuracy. In any case you're character has an HS value of 13, so even assuming nothing but Second Wind you have 65 hit points readily available, an action point, a daily power, a magic item daily power use, and possibly other item powers/etc. You also have 2 feats and probably a potion or two. Meanwhile the orc has a 16 point healing power and a basic attack. So yes, its about an even match, and with ANY amount of support from the rest of the party should present no problem. The issue of teamwork unfortunately can't really be put 'beyond the discussion' either. You and your team mates will certain provide each other flanking and other benefits. Except I find your analysis of the encounter to be wanting. 5 of the 9 combatants are minions and have 1 hit point. The warlock or the wizard or the invoker or the sorcerer etc will likely finish those off in round 1 or maybe some will linger to round 2. So the encounter is effectively 4 orcs, one of which is an elite and thus worth about 2 monsters. A STANDARD monster of level 8 has 108 hit points as a brute. This is quite comparable to the PCs 88 hit points plus 22 point guaranteed available surge healing. The Orc Chieftain does effectively have 270 hit points with its healing but again has modest defenses and fairly low attack numbers. So the answer really is here that you wouldn't fight an Orc Chieftain 1-on-1. You'd maybe hold him off for a round while the other PCs dealt with the minions and got set up to take out the leader. At that point you'd have the assistance of at least 1 other PC all the time. Again cooperation between the PCs will count for a lot and you now have 2 daily powers, 4 encounter powers, and 2 utility powers, plus all your stuff to work with. The Orc has a basic melee attack, a healing power that takes its full standard action for a round, and a recharge power that is useful but not going to shake up the battlefield. I think the way things work now is basically fine. What would the alternative be? That monsters have much higher defenses and do a lot more damage on every attack. The result of which is that frequently a lucky shot by a monster will KO a PC in one attack. The PCs on the flip side are desperately trying to get high numbers so they hit at all against their difficult foes. Sure each hit counts for a lot more but the battle is much less predictable and thus tactics is devalued in favor of high damage attacks that can be gotten off with the least fuss. In essence you're going back to a 3.x style of combat, though maybe not to the same degree. As far as what is 'realistic' for an orc. Is it that realistic for a gnome to have 88 hit points? Obviously hit points do represent a lot of things besides sheer physical ability to absorb punishment. This has of course been discussed 1000's of times and need not be repeated here. Powerful monsters are powerful because of their mystical nature, training, etc. that gives them the hit points to be able to combat other things of similar levels. The Mind Flayer is far beyond the ability of an orc and thus has a good bit more hit points. If the Orc Chieftain was confronted with the Mind Flayer, he'd most likely either die or yield to its superior power. My advice is to just shed the whole excessive reliance on simulationism entirely. Embrace 4e for what it is, a cinematic RPG of heroes. Really its not even appreciably less simulationist in any practical sense than any other edition of D&D has ever been. None of them are close to simulating reality at all. Its like worrying about something that is 97% unrealistic and comparing it to something that is only 94% unrealistic. Both situations are totally unrealistic. This is the great thing about 4e, the designers realized that and they write things to be fun and exciting. The 216 hit point Orc Chieftain will take some effort to kill, and that is why it has the right hit points. No other reason is necessary. I say all this as a LONG time player that has slowly evolved past the simulationist phase of gaming and into what I would call higher modes of play. Embrace it and you will be enlightened! ;) [/QUOTE]
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