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<blockquote data-quote="Celebrim" data-source="post: 9252779" data-attributes="member: 4937">I never had this problem is past editions because sleep always put to sleep a number of HD worth of targets, so hit points is irrelevant.&nbsp; A typical veteran (2HD) in my 3.X inspired game (a suitable guard against a party of 5th level) would have like 21 hit points.&nbsp; RAW, you'd be looking at more like 13 hit points.&nbsp; In 1e more like 9 hit points.&nbsp; A 5th level rouge in my game, would be expected to sneak attack for about 17 hit points, assuming no critical hit.&nbsp; Not necessarily enough to drop the guard in one action, but certainly enough that if they won initiative, they could get a second blow in before the guard could scream.&nbsp; The RAW guard (lacking my bonus hit points from size class) would go down hard.The two problems here are joined, not just over protection from save or suck and not just the bloat on HD and hit points where an ordinary guard has as much hit points as a 12HD 1e monster.&nbsp; I mean how many HD does a &quot;veteran&quot; need anyway?&nbsp;&nbsp; I feel like my 3.X tweaked hit a sweet spot where a 2HD guard on its own would go down fast to a PC, but where 2-3 of them per PC was a challenge, and 4-5 of them per PC was a serious problem.&nbsp; What has all the redone math accomplished really?</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Celebrim, post: 9252779, member: 4937"] I never had this problem is past editions because sleep always put to sleep a number of HD worth of targets, so hit points is irrelevant. A typical veteran (2HD) in my 3.X inspired game (a suitable guard against a party of 5th level) would have like 21 hit points. RAW, you'd be looking at more like 13 hit points. In 1e more like 9 hit points. A 5th level rouge in my game, would be expected to sneak attack for about 17 hit points, assuming no critical hit. Not necessarily enough to drop the guard in one action, but certainly enough that if they won initiative, they could get a second blow in before the guard could scream. The RAW guard (lacking my bonus hit points from size class) would go down hard. The two problems here are joined, not just over protection from save or suck and not just the bloat on HD and hit points where an ordinary guard has as much hit points as a 12HD 1e monster. I mean how many HD does a "veteran" need anyway? I feel like my 3.X tweaked hit a sweet spot where a 2HD guard on its own would go down fast to a PC, but where 2-3 of them per PC was a challenge, and 4-5 of them per PC was a serious problem. What has all the redone math accomplished really? [/QUOTE]

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