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<blockquote data-quote="gizmo33" data-source="post: 4630851" data-attributes="member: 30001">&quot;Conan 4E&quot; with 40 hp and 8 healing surges takes 10 points of damage.&nbsp; The DM says he takes a scratch.&nbsp;&nbsp; The DM says he's feeling tired.&nbsp; At the end of the battle he uses a healing surge.&nbsp; Conan 4E still has a scratch on his shoulder.&nbsp; It doesn't affect his strength, climbing ability, agility, saves, etc.&nbsp; He's going to fight orcs and still kill them.&nbsp; Whatever effect the scratch has is not noticable to the observer.&nbsp; When he fights Thoth Amon he may win or lose, no one really cares about the scratch.&nbsp; If he loses, it turns out that scratch was a lot more serious than anyone thought - perhaps it nagged him the whole battle after all (so he claims).&nbsp;&quot;Conan 1E&quot; with 40 hp takes 5 points of damage.&nbsp; The DM says he takes a scratch and is feeling tired.&nbsp; It doesn't affect his strength, climbing ability, agility, saves etc.&nbsp; He's going to fight orcs and still kill them.&nbsp; Whatever effect the scratch has is not noticable to the observer (just ask the dead orcs).&nbsp; When he fights Thoth Amon he wins or loses, 5 hp might not make a difference.&nbsp; If it does, he can blame the scratch just like Conan 4E did.&nbsp; Conan 1E might leave the dungeon to get his 5 hp back if he knows (metagaming) that Thoth Amon is a tough customer.&nbsp; The other Cimmerians would laugh that Conan 1E left the dungeon because of a scratch on his shoulder and some whining about the intangible effect on his luck.&nbsp; Still, they would avoid calling him a princess since they all know about the 15 minute adventuring day.&nbsp; Later that night, the other Cimmerians send in 3 orc warriors to assassinate Conan.&nbsp; Conan stops moaning, jumps out of bed, kills all three orcs, and gets back into bed moaning about his sore intangible and how he can't wait for it to heal so he can go kill Thoth.&nbsp;I say the significant difference here is in the metagaming, not that the DM can more plausibly describe injury in one system than in the other.&nbsp; In fact, I think the main problem here might be that the DMs want to apply 1E injury description strategies to 4E mechanics where there are a few more variables that they would need to take into account.&nbsp; No one is ever going to be physically injured in 4E DnD in a way where there will be any noticable effects that last more than a day.&nbsp; The explanations for this are the same set used in 1E, just applied in different ways.&nbsp; &nbsp;Then again, I cannot begin to fathom how 1E (page 82 of the DMG or not) ever provided a satisfactory simulation of injury.&nbsp; &quot;Injured&quot; Conan 1E is sprinting out of the dungeon and riding back to the castle unhindered.&nbsp; Met by a few low-level brigands on the road, he'd still kill them all.&nbsp; There are a myriad of physical effects of injury, and none of them are modeled by the system.&nbsp; &nbsp;If you want to say that Conan with 1 hp left is on death's door that's fine, but nothing about the game really indicates this other than he probably won't win a fight against the 3 orcs.&nbsp; And in keeping the ability to say this, which you'll never use anyway because of healing magic, you're going to have to deal with metagaming Conan fleeing the Castle of Thoth Amon because he only has 90% of his hitpoints left.&nbsp; And a 90% well Conan fleeing the castle is satisfying from a simulationist/narrativist perspective?</blockquote>

[QUOTE="gizmo33, post: 4630851, member: 30001"] "Conan 4E" with 40 hp and 8 healing surges takes 10 points of damage. The DM says he takes a scratch. The DM says he's feeling tired. At the end of the battle he uses a healing surge. Conan 4E still has a scratch on his shoulder. It doesn't affect his strength, climbing ability, agility, saves, etc. He's going to fight orcs and still kill them. Whatever effect the scratch has is not noticable to the observer. When he fights Thoth Amon he may win or lose, no one really cares about the scratch. If he loses, it turns out that scratch was a lot more serious than anyone thought - perhaps it nagged him the whole battle after all (so he claims). "Conan 1E" with 40 hp takes 5 points of damage. The DM says he takes a scratch and is feeling tired. It doesn't affect his strength, climbing ability, agility, saves etc. He's going to fight orcs and still kill them. Whatever effect the scratch has is not noticable to the observer (just ask the dead orcs). When he fights Thoth Amon he wins or loses, 5 hp might not make a difference. If it does, he can blame the scratch just like Conan 4E did. Conan 1E might leave the dungeon to get his 5 hp back if he knows (metagaming) that Thoth Amon is a tough customer. The other Cimmerians would laugh that Conan 1E left the dungeon because of a scratch on his shoulder and some whining about the intangible effect on his luck. Still, they would avoid calling him a princess since they all know about the 15 minute adventuring day. Later that night, the other Cimmerians send in 3 orc warriors to assassinate Conan. Conan stops moaning, jumps out of bed, kills all three orcs, and gets back into bed moaning about his sore intangible and how he can't wait for it to heal so he can go kill Thoth. I say the significant difference here is in the metagaming, not that the DM can more plausibly describe injury in one system than in the other. In fact, I think the main problem here might be that the DMs want to apply 1E injury description strategies to 4E mechanics where there are a few more variables that they would need to take into account. No one is ever going to be physically injured in 4E DnD in a way where there will be any noticable effects that last more than a day. The explanations for this are the same set used in 1E, just applied in different ways. Then again, I cannot begin to fathom how 1E (page 82 of the DMG or not) ever provided a satisfactory simulation of injury. "Injured" Conan 1E is sprinting out of the dungeon and riding back to the castle unhindered. Met by a few low-level brigands on the road, he'd still kill them all. There are a myriad of physical effects of injury, and none of them are modeled by the system. If you want to say that Conan with 1 hp left is on death's door that's fine, but nothing about the game really indicates this other than he probably won't win a fight against the 3 orcs. And in keeping the ability to say this, which you'll never use anyway because of healing magic, you're going to have to deal with metagaming Conan fleeing the Castle of Thoth Amon because he only has 90% of his hitpoints left. And a 90% well Conan fleeing the castle is satisfying from a simulationist/narrativist perspective? [/QUOTE]

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