Hold Person

[Grayhawk]

The way that the 3.5e Hold Person spell lets you try to break it's effect each round is quite a reduction of the spell's power.

But since I kind of like that mechanic as it lets a player with a held character have something to do each round as well as adding some unpredictability to magic, I have a suggestion of how to restore some of that power.

(As I obviously don't think a reduction in the spell's power was called for.)

In 1st and 2nd edition the Hold Person spell could affect several creatures, but had a penalty to the save of -1 or -2 when targeted at just 2 or 1 opponent.

Since the 3e version(s) only lets you affect 1 creature, how about bringing back the -2 penalty to the save?

 

[MarauderX]

I like the idea.

I also think the spell's power has been reduced too far, and have decided to house rule it a bit myself, whenever I get started as a DM again. The -2 would work well, although I was thinking of a penalty of as much as -4, with the penalty decreasing by 1 each round until the target makes her will save. It would be a strong spell again versus a single opponent, and if there were only a few baddies to be fought the spell can be used as a powerful stunning weapon to change the outcome of the battle. It would also make higher level casters afraid of the spell once again, as they usually have super high Will saves and can essentially ignore Will save spells once they reach 10th level. For the fighter types, it would just enhance their frustration against casters that much more, although they should realize they still get a save each round with the penalties instead of dismissing the spell as probably lasting only 2-3 rounds.

 

[Al]

The problem with the new Hold Person is that whilst it is mechanically weaker, it is actually far *more* dangerous for the PCs.

Under the old Hold Person, the best tactic for the allies of the caster were to wait until the round before it wore off before CDGing the victim, unless the victim had allies with Remove Paralysis (etc.), or unless the victim was a psion/caster with Silent + Still.

Under the new Hold Person, the best tactic is to CDG as soon as possible, since it could wear off in any round.

Thus, from a tactically-optimised enemy group, you can see a lot more Hold + CDG type manoeuvres than in 3e...which invariably makes Hold more dangerous.

 

[Scion]

Personally, I prefer to use something akin to ectoplasmic form.

from the srd:

Ectoplasmic Cocoon
Metacreativity (Int)
Level: Psion 2
Display: Ma, Au
Manifestation Time: 1 action
Range: Medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)
Target: One creature of Medium-size or smaller
Duration: 1 round/level (D)
Saving Throw: Reflex negates
Power Resistance: Yes
Power Points: 3
Strands of ectoplasm wrap up the subject like a mummy. The subject can still breathe but is otherwise helpless, being unable to see or take any physical actions. The subject cannot speak because the ectoplasmic strands muffle sounds, but the subject’s nostrils are clear. The subject can execute purely mental actions (such as manifesting powers). The writhing, regenerating nature of the cocoon prevents its occupant from making a physical bid for escape. However, cutting or damaging a large enough strand can free the cocooned victim. The strands have hardness 17 and 30 hit points.
Creatures that are cocooned high in the air fall, and cocooned swimmers may drown.

With the character unable to take damage from physical attacks while the cocoon still wraps them up and since this is a more limited form I could see giving the penalty you speak of (while trying to stay away from the 'save or die' attitude).

 

[Staffan]

Strands of ectoplasm wrap up the subject like a mummy. The subject can still breathe but is otherwise helpless, being unable to see or take any physical actions. The subject cannot speak because the ectoplasmic strands muffle sounds, but the subject’s nostrils are clear. The subject can execute purely mental actions (such as manifesting powers). The writhing, regenerating nature of the cocoon prevents its occupant from making a physical bid for escape. However, cutting or damaging a large enough strand can free the cocooned victim. The strands have hardness 17 and 30 hit points.
Creatures that are cocooned high in the air fall, and cocooned swimmers may drown.

With the character unable to take damage from physical attacks while the cocoon still wraps them up and since this is a more limited form I could see giving the penalty you speak of (while trying to stay away from the 'save or die' attitude).

I don't see anything in that description that says you can't hurt the cocooned person. Flavor-wise, one could easily consider a CdG on someone in a cocoon as putting your sword (or whatever) between the strands and pushing.

 

[Scion]

I don't see anything in that description that says you can't hurt the cocooned person. Flavor-wise, one could easily consider a CdG on someone in a cocoon as putting your sword (or whatever) between the strands and pushing.

Guess i didnt make my last line clear enough. I always add on the line that they cant be hurt by various things just to make it clear whenever it is used in actual play.

 

[S'mon]

The problem with the new Hold Person is that whilst it is mechanically weaker, it is actually far *more* dangerous for the PCs.

Under the old Hold Person, the best tactic for the allies of the caster were to wait until the round before it wore off before CDGing the victim, unless the victim had allies with Remove Paralysis (etc.), or unless the victim was a psion/caster with Silent + Still.

Under the new Hold Person, the best tactic is to CDG as soon as possible, since it could wear off in any round.

Thus, from a tactically-optimised enemy group, you can see a lot more Hold + CDG type manoeuvres than in 3e...which invariably makes Hold more dangerous.

I agree - had a PC die this way IMC yesterday, 'Held' by a gaze attack (from a Gholle - see Necropolis) & CDG'd. Another PC was paralysed by Ghulaz spit (as ghoul's touch) for 10 minutes, so she survived the same fight.

 

[Grayhawk]

The problem with the new Hold Person is that whilst it is mechanically weaker, it is actually far *more* dangerous for the PCs.
...

So making it mechanically stronger could make the spell *less* lethal to the PC's, as the harder saves removes some of the urgency to CdG (compared to the core 3.5e version).