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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Voss" data-source="post: 3955823" data-attributes="member: 57593">Lets put it this way.Elf guy, as above.  +16  (or someone else trained, focuses and a pile of bonuses)Rogue, trained, slight wisdom.  call it +7untrained, wisdom-less fellow.  +0.  Or +1 if the elf is close by.this is all first level, by the way.Whats an appropriate DC here?10?  Not even an issue for the elf.  #2, 85% chance of success. #3, 50%.15?  100% for elf.  #2: 60%.  #3: 25%20?  #1: 80%, still.  #2, 35%.  #3: 5% 25?  Sorry, only the elf is playing reliably at this level.  He's still at 55%. #2 is down to 15%.  #3 isn't even there.So how do you appropriately challenge this party with spot or search scenario?  Oh, the perception specialist found it and the rest of you shouldn't even bother isn't a very good option.Even without the elf (say a human with focus, training, that perception/combat advantage feat and a decent wisdom, near an elf he's at +15 or so.), this variance in the modifier for 1st level characters is far too huge.  0 to about ~15 when the random number generator only goes to 20 is a major problem.  Someone's randomly throwing the dice and hoping he gets Vegas Odds, and someone else is almost guaranteed a win.  That isn't good.  In fact, as a system, thats down right *horrible*.Gods help us if they take the Saga route and make initiative a skill</blockquote>