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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Sadrik" data-source="post: 4814530" data-attributes="member: 14506">Being from the "pro-striker camp" I think what you have posted here is an idealized version of what really happens. This is more a this is how it should/ought to be kind of idealization that is a little more than misleading from how the game actually plays.Other than minions, most monsters have a lot of HP. When I mean a lot I mean that it is difficult often for even a striker to one-shot a monster. This is a very big change from 3e, where damage was higher and monster HP where lower. When trying to kill a monster with 191 HP and you average hit is doing 20 but a striker is doing 30 or 40 you take that from 10 hit monster to a 5-7 hit monster. Shaving those precious rounds is what it is about. The quicker you drop the first monster the quicker you can move on to the next.I will agree that you can devise a defender to deal striker like damage (especially the fighter). In this case the defender is actually useful. If you can maximize the damage output to equal to a striker then you will have a character regardless of roll who can actually pull his weight. Any other defender build is not viable from my estimation, in fact they actually hurt the party in combat rather than help it.I still think the payoff of a leader is pretty useful, the healing alone is difficult to pass up. Besides clerics do striker like damage against undead. I would never ever have more than one though and it is an entirely optional thing. If you have three or less players I would say go all strikers.Controllers are the 4e bard. Sure they do a little bit of damage to a lot of opponents (even if you can hit a lot of opponents without hitting or hindering your allies) But this is little more than a slight scratch on the 4e monsters. The only place it shines is against minions and well that sucks. Not to mention that minions can be dealt with by the striker *own* AoE powers, twin shots, feats, race, multi-class powers and magic items equally as well if not better.Leaders and controllers require a well oiled machine to make them work properly and then they arguably don't even contribute like a striker could have in the first place. A level of detail and a conscious "lets all huddle and squeeze out as many points out of every character as possible" is required. Many DMs and players don't like playing with the "tactician" who has "the" overarching plan for the party and parades the best way is... or we ought to... style of gaming. Not to mention the real time drag it has on the game. If you are lucky enough to have a group of all tactician style players sitting at your table and you think you can squeeze the most out of a non-damage optimized defender and a goofy controller then I say go for it. Otherwise don't bother.</blockquote>

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