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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Greenfield" data-source="post: 7478887" data-attributes="member: 6669384">I saw this when you posted it, but took a few days off to get my head around it.  I think we're dealing with a major miscommunication.When we talk about "skills", let's make sure we're talking about those things listed as Skills, rather than the total character ability.  Combat proficiencies are something else.Having said that, there is no edition of D&D, ever, prior to 4e that auto advanced skills.  Skills get advanced when a player explicitly spends earned skill points on them, and no other time.  This represents training and practice with that skill.  There is no requirement that you *use* said skill in play because many skills can be learned anew that can't be used untrained.  Combat ability auto advances in class/level based games because the vast majority of Exp is earned in combat situations.  Martial types advance their martial abilities the fastest because those are the abilities they use the most while earning Exp on an adventure.  Spell casters advance casting ability the fastest because those are the areas that they use the most.  Rogues and other skill-monkeys gain skills faster because that's wheat they use most while adventuring.Mixed classes, such as the Paladin and Ranger advance in martial prowess quickly because that's their major area of expertise.  They don't get spells until they have several levels to advance their martial ability, and when they get them they advance slowly (Caster level is always half their character level.)So I honestly don't get this argument that class/level systems auto advance skills PCs don't practice.  It was never true prior to 4e and the Universal Proficiency bonus we're discussing.On the topic of a caster's BAB being hard to track/manage, I'm still lost.  A +12 at 20th is no harder to handle than a +20.  And, as I pointed out, it does matter and it does get used.  That AC 35 thing you mentioned probably has the Saving throws from hell, on top of whatever else it has, so spells that allow Saves become less and less reliable.  Ray spells, that merely require a ranged touch, typically allow no Save, and that AC 35 may have a Touch AC as low as 8.  (Dragons are notorious for this sort of thing.)  My caster's +12 means that ray spells are almost sure to work.  So are straight touch attacks (Touch of Idiocy can absolutely ruin a casting monster's day.)  +12 is very relevant, and certainly worth the "bother" of keeping track of.Now, regarding your question about why Fighters might have ranks in Disable Device when they're never supposed to use them:  Good question.  I have no answer to why a fighter with an average Dex would waste their scarce and valuable skill points on a cross-class skill they'll never use.  It's a question best aimed at the player of said fighter.  Co-mingling skill sand proficiencies for a moment,  to deal with the "Wizard with a Sword" example, you're right that the Wiz' shouldn't be swinging a sword.  But that doesn't mean that they shouldn't have a BAB, just that they should have the brains to put it to good use.There are remarkably few spells that require a normal "hit" in combat.  Most that require a dice roll at all are Touch or Ranged Touch spells, and those need hit a target number that's typically much lower than the full AC.  So a lower BAB works, and discourages them from diving into melee, where their inherent squishiness comes into play.Over all, it seems as if you're reading my words, and somehow taking to mean the exact opposite.  Skills that PC's don't use or train in don't advance with levels, before 4E.  I never suggested or agreed that they did.  Combat abilities advance proportional to the use they get while adventuring:  The more time spent in martial activities, the faster the martial abilities grow.That's the essence of class/level systems like D&D.</blockquote>

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