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*Dungeons & Dragons
Homebrew class: the PARAGON
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<blockquote data-quote="DND_Reborn" data-source="post: 7831020" data-attributes="member: 6987520"><p>LOL no worries! I have a thick skin when it comes to game design and try to be equally respectful of others' ideas, too. I appreciate constructive criticism for what it is and always appreciate others' insights. <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite1" alt=":)" title="Smile :)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":)" /></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Yeah, I totally get your point, but this is one of the reasons why I would make a subclass of Barbarian instead of a new class entirely. The only problem with that would be choosing 4 features for the subclass when there are so many good ideas to choose from!</p><p></p><p>If it wasn't for Muscle Mass, I would say keep it but make it 10 + Dex mod + Str mod.</p><p></p><p>I thought the Hard As Steel feature would be useful as an alternative. Also, a single level dip into Barbarian (likely for Rage!) would give you Unarmored Defense as well. Now, if your table doesn't play with multiclasing, that would be different, but IME nearly all tables use it.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>That was my oversight. I was following the formula for raw STR boost, not realizing I was actually doubling the effective benefit over your version! I'm glad you caught it.</p><p></p><p>I went with disadvantage because, personally, I don't like the mechanic of figuring out the penalty. Also, with Heroic Stature + Muscle Mass and a STR 30 at maximum, you'd be accepted a -5 to hit for effectively +10 to damage all the time. You would still be +11 with max proficiency, same as everyone else, but +20 total to damage. Factor in something like GWF and it would jump to +30 damage. Doesn't that seem a bit overkill? I know you removed Extra Attack to compensate for this, but there are ways to get additional attacks as well.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Well, this is where improvised weapons come in. An improvised weapon is <em>supposed</em> to have damage equal to a normal weapon if it mimics it in the eyes of the DM. The base "improvised weapon damage" is simply for items that don't mimic weapons. The jawbone of an ass would be a "club" and should do damage accordingly.</p><p></p><p>Maybe instead have the feature something akin to Dueling? When you attack with an improvised weapon you gain +2 damage or something?</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Sure, that would feel cool, right!? But giving a class a +1 ability bonus every other level is enormous! You are basically giving the class STR-only ASI's in addition to normal ASI's. Maybe something to encourage using ASI's on STR? Like if you use your ASI to gain +2 STR, you gain +3 instead?</p><p></p><p>Honestly, I don't know. You said you ran the numbers before and it works okay, but to me it just seems TOO good. Maybe during the games I'll try building a character and see how it works.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>It is a large amount, but that is the point IMO. It helps ensure when the die roll goes against such a heroic character, they have a good chance of turning that failure into success. Maybe a flat d10 bonus would be better?</p><p></p><p>For myself, at least, I am trying to eliminate the straining damage mechanic. I don't think features should involve damaging the PC, and I don't believe any other class has features that do (I could be mistaken, but I can't recall any right now).</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Forgetting unarmed strikes/ improvised weapons was another oversight (that's what you get when working late... <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite2" alt=";)" title="Wink ;)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=";)" /> ). I would certainly add those as well!</p><p></p><p>Again, this comes down to the math. You say it works out, but on first inspection it is SO big. Also, when it comes to multiclassing, imagine a Barbarian 5/ Paragon 15? If I understand your version correctly, I would be dealing a whopping 6d6 damage with a greatsword, plus my enormous STR mod (when you add in Heroic Stature), TWICE a round!</p><p></p><p>It comes down to the numbers and while my version with maximum damage is weaker, it is almost equivalent to scoring a critical hit. It could well be my idea is underpowered, but I think your version could be too much given the right build. Maybe I am wrong? We should examine it more I think.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Hmm... I was thinking of a single roll just to make it a bit faster, but allowing individual attack rolls works fine, too of course. However, this feature along with the Heavy Hit damage you have means I don't even have to work about multiclassing to get Extra Attack, you are basically giving it to them anyway. It is only a slight difference IMO due to the need to possibly move. Of course, if you are attacked on both sides, you can't use Great Cleave (until much higher levels anyway) to attack both targets since they are more than 5 feet apart.</p><p></p><p>I guess I just see this as situation-based abusive.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Well, it <em>is</em> significantly better, but it is also a 9th level feature vs. a 17th level one. <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite1" alt=":)" title="Smile :)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":)" /></p><p></p><p>Trade-offs:</p><p>Any failed save vs only STR, DEX, or CON.</p><p>Reroll vs. auto-succeed</p><p>Long rest vs. short or long rest.</p><p></p><p>I find Indomitable is more useful because it applies to the saves Fighters are more likely to fail, i.e. the "mental" ones.</p><p></p><p>Well, good discussion! I like your feedback and I hope my responses will give you some food for thought as well. <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite1" alt=":)" title="Smile :)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":)" /></p><p></p><p><strong>EDIT:</strong></p><p></p><p>So, some (very) quick number estimates this morning leads me to believe you are probably pretty close with Heroic Stature + Heavy Hit adding so many dice in damage. However, I would most certainly add a limit of once per turn or round even for Heavy Hit to avoid multiclass abuse, etc.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="DND_Reborn, post: 7831020, member: 6987520"] LOL no worries! I have a thick skin when it comes to game design and try to be equally respectful of others' ideas, too. I appreciate constructive criticism for what it is and always appreciate others' insights. :) Yeah, I totally get your point, but this is one of the reasons why I would make a subclass of Barbarian instead of a new class entirely. The only problem with that would be choosing 4 features for the subclass when there are so many good ideas to choose from! If it wasn't for Muscle Mass, I would say keep it but make it 10 + Dex mod + Str mod. I thought the Hard As Steel feature would be useful as an alternative. Also, a single level dip into Barbarian (likely for Rage!) would give you Unarmored Defense as well. Now, if your table doesn't play with multiclasing, that would be different, but IME nearly all tables use it. That was my oversight. I was following the formula for raw STR boost, not realizing I was actually doubling the effective benefit over your version! I'm glad you caught it. I went with disadvantage because, personally, I don't like the mechanic of figuring out the penalty. Also, with Heroic Stature + Muscle Mass and a STR 30 at maximum, you'd be accepted a -5 to hit for effectively +10 to damage all the time. You would still be +11 with max proficiency, same as everyone else, but +20 total to damage. Factor in something like GWF and it would jump to +30 damage. Doesn't that seem a bit overkill? I know you removed Extra Attack to compensate for this, but there are ways to get additional attacks as well. Well, this is where improvised weapons come in. An improvised weapon is [I]supposed[/I] to have damage equal to a normal weapon if it mimics it in the eyes of the DM. The base "improvised weapon damage" is simply for items that don't mimic weapons. The jawbone of an ass would be a "club" and should do damage accordingly. Maybe instead have the feature something akin to Dueling? When you attack with an improvised weapon you gain +2 damage or something? Sure, that would feel cool, right!? But giving a class a +1 ability bonus every other level is enormous! You are basically giving the class STR-only ASI's in addition to normal ASI's. Maybe something to encourage using ASI's on STR? Like if you use your ASI to gain +2 STR, you gain +3 instead? Honestly, I don't know. You said you ran the numbers before and it works okay, but to me it just seems TOO good. Maybe during the games I'll try building a character and see how it works. It is a large amount, but that is the point IMO. It helps ensure when the die roll goes against such a heroic character, they have a good chance of turning that failure into success. Maybe a flat d10 bonus would be better? For myself, at least, I am trying to eliminate the straining damage mechanic. I don't think features should involve damaging the PC, and I don't believe any other class has features that do (I could be mistaken, but I can't recall any right now). Forgetting unarmed strikes/ improvised weapons was another oversight (that's what you get when working late... ;) ). I would certainly add those as well! Again, this comes down to the math. You say it works out, but on first inspection it is SO big. Also, when it comes to multiclassing, imagine a Barbarian 5/ Paragon 15? If I understand your version correctly, I would be dealing a whopping 6d6 damage with a greatsword, plus my enormous STR mod (when you add in Heroic Stature), TWICE a round! It comes down to the numbers and while my version with maximum damage is weaker, it is almost equivalent to scoring a critical hit. It could well be my idea is underpowered, but I think your version could be too much given the right build. Maybe I am wrong? We should examine it more I think. Hmm... I was thinking of a single roll just to make it a bit faster, but allowing individual attack rolls works fine, too of course. However, this feature along with the Heavy Hit damage you have means I don't even have to work about multiclassing to get Extra Attack, you are basically giving it to them anyway. It is only a slight difference IMO due to the need to possibly move. Of course, if you are attacked on both sides, you can't use Great Cleave (until much higher levels anyway) to attack both targets since they are more than 5 feet apart. I guess I just see this as situation-based abusive. Well, it [I]is[/I] significantly better, but it is also a 9th level feature vs. a 17th level one. :) Trade-offs: Any failed save vs only STR, DEX, or CON. Reroll vs. auto-succeed Long rest vs. short or long rest. I find Indomitable is more useful because it applies to the saves Fighters are more likely to fail, i.e. the "mental" ones. Well, good discussion! I like your feedback and I hope my responses will give you some food for thought as well. :) [B]EDIT:[/B] So, some (very) quick number estimates this morning leads me to believe you are probably pretty close with Heroic Stature + Heavy Hit adding so many dice in damage. However, I would most certainly add a limit of once per turn or round even for Heavy Hit to avoid multiclass abuse, etc. [/QUOTE]
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