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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Chaosmancer" data-source="post: 8704771" data-attributes="member: 6801228">But also like I said Word of Radiance does a d6 to only chosen creatures, so in that respect my cantrip is the same. So, why does sword burst hit everyone and word of radiance doesn't? shrug I can't figure out a good reason for it. And yes, I would also compare cantrip to cantrip damage, but that is a max of 4d10 (22 damage) at 120 ft of safety versus a max of 2d6 (7) against multiple targets, with an increase movement speed and a change to get to safety. Even if you have three target and get almost as much damage as firebolt, you either stay in melee (dangerous) or you move and risk AoO's. Firebolt does not risk you getting hit. And that tells me that this cantrip is fine.And my cantrip just offers a more risky escape option. For less damage. But I think this again points to these cantrips not being very good, because the most viable path is to use them, then use a 2nd level spell to run.I'm not sure what kind of distinction we should be making about them being "direct damage" or "indirect damage". How does that inform the design and balance?And, yes, 4d6 feels strong because of the riders. That's kind of the point? I'm reducing the maximum damage because of the riders. But also, I think 4d6 on a 5ft aoe with no riders is... kind of too weak. Anyways, my rewrite for Shillelagh and Magic Stone was a bit simpler. Magic stone does 2d6 at 11th and 3d6 at 17th (more ammo doesn't do anything for this cantrip? Literally the only value that would have is if your spellcasting modifer is higher than the other characters attack modifier. Which unless you are specifically giving them to a strength character who has to hit a target beyound 30 ft, will basically never come up? And even then, that is hyper specific). Shillelagh becomes 2d8 at level 11. I didn't raise it any higher, because it is possible to combine Shillelagh with feats to get much better damage, unlike Magic Stone.That would be my preferred use with it. Why is that too powerful to allow? It seems to me that you are in such a bad situation where you have three enemies next to you, and more enemies between you and safety, that having a mildly good option is perfectly fine? They still get the chance TO make AoO's, which they wouldn't if the cast just used disengage instead. Which is a guaranteed zero damage from running away.Yeah, I'm just trying to dig into the design here and make sure I'm considering as many angles as I can.</blockquote>

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