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<blockquote data-quote="Remathilis" data-source="post: 4322520" data-attributes="member: 7635">I think (in all honesty) this seems to be the biggest general (sub-conscious) reason people dislike 4e: It chucks some of the fundamental &quot;clunky&quot; rules that have defined the game from nearly its inception...Its these mechanical aspects that seem to create a &quot;vision&quot; of what a D&amp;D character is/can do. A 5th level magic-user/mage/wizard can fly or throw a 5d6 ball of fire (but rarely at the same time) if he has the spell readied for the day. This is no longer true in 4e: fireball doesn't do your level x d6 damage, and you can't fly until nearly 10 levels later. Is it better balanced? You betcha. Is it a radical departure from what players have been used to for the better of 20 years? That too. What makes this different from reversing the AC upwards or removing Save. Vs. Petrification/Polymorph for Fortitude Saves was that it defined your character. A 5th level wizard can fly. A 9th level Cleric can raise the dead. A magic missile never misses. A 7th level fighter has more than one attack per round. Rogues (and only rogues) were trapfinders. None of these things are true anymore. It changes what these character's roles (not as 4e uses the term) are in the game and requires much deprogramming to accept that polymorph is gone, wizards can raise the dead, fighters get one attack/round, and anyone can find traps trained in thievery. But is it still D&amp;D? I think so. Enough of its soul remains that even if the mechanics is different, the spirit uniquely D&amp;D is there. I don't know if that is because of the trademark, the title, the classic mix of races and classes, or what, but I know it still feels like D&amp;D when I read it or play it, just not the D&amp;D I used to play.The more things change...</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Remathilis, post: 4322520, member: 7635"] I think (in all honesty) this seems to be the biggest general (sub-conscious) reason people dislike 4e: It chucks some of the fundamental "clunky" rules that have defined the game from nearly its inception... Its these mechanical aspects that seem to create a "vision" of what a D&D character is/can do. A 5th level magic-user/mage/wizard can fly or throw a 5d6 ball of fire (but rarely at the same time) if he has the spell readied for the day. This is no longer true in 4e: fireball doesn't do your level x d6 damage, and you can't fly until nearly 10 levels later. Is it better balanced? You betcha. Is it a radical departure from what players have been used to for the better of 20 years? That too. What makes this different from reversing the AC upwards or removing Save. Vs. Petrification/Polymorph for Fortitude Saves was that it defined your character. A 5th level wizard can fly. A 9th level Cleric can raise the dead. A magic missile never misses. A 7th level fighter has more than one attack per round. Rogues (and only rogues) were trapfinders. None of these things are true anymore. It changes what these character's roles (not as 4e uses the term) are in the game and requires much deprogramming to accept that polymorph is gone, wizards can raise the dead, fighters get one attack/round, and anyone can find traps trained in thievery. But is it still D&D? I think so. Enough of its soul remains that even if the mechanics is different, the spirit uniquely D&D is there. I don't know if that is because of the trademark, the title, the classic mix of races and classes, or what, but I know it still feels like D&D when I read it or play it, just not the D&D I used to play. The more things change... [/QUOTE]

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