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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Imaro" data-source="post: 3798648" data-attributes="member: 48965">I gotta say, I'm hoping he is saying what the OP hopes he is saying.  Now I understand peoples reservations about the players as opposed to the characters being challenged, but I feel you can find a medium between skill rolls and actual player participation.As far as the "sudoku" comment...why does this have to be limited to logic puzzles?  Riddles are a staple of fantasy (and yes even modern fantasy, games like Final Fantasy, and anime) make use of them.  Why can't a skill roll interact with the puzzle so as to make it easier in the same way Gather information gives a player varying levels of knowledge on a subject, but it's the actual players who must apply that knowledge in the game.  Also, the whole "you can't open the door unless" scenario doesn't have to exist.  You can always break the door down, of course you won't be surprising anyone on the other side that way and may be surprised yourself, or better yet the puzzle/riddle can actually be connected to a locking mechanism, giving the players the choice of trying the puzzle or disabling it.  This also creates alternatives for parties without rogues or for when the rogue fails his check.  I enjoy these type of challenges and for those who don't it's easy enough for a DM to set a DC to bash the door down or pick the lock.  What I'm curious about is does this problem ever arise when a PC fails his pick lock check.  Is the party stuck then?  How is basing getting through a door on a riddle/puzzle/etc. any different han basing it on the roll of a single player?</blockquote>

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