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Message: <blockquote data-quote="BryonD" data-source="post: 2889289" data-attributes="member: 957">I completely agree with the first statement.What is the basis of the second statement?IMO, they shouldn't be any LESS deadly than a whole lot MORE deadly than FCI stats peg them.I understand the reasoning of most people stop by level 20 and this puts them in reach of those games.  I think it is a bad theory, but I understand it.But if being able to cast L9 spells puts a character on par with a demon lord, then what law states that it must end there?  The conventional wisdom is that a great majority of games end well before 20th level.  Should groups that stop at L12 or L15 have demon lords denied them?  It makes total sense to me to say demon lords should be more powerful than any standard character ("standard" being pretty much anything in the core 3 books, up to L20 chars).  So the minimum CR should be mid to upper 20s and probably higher.  You can argue all day as to whether they should be CR29 or CR89 and it makes no difference.  There is a big gulf between debating just how much more powerful than a core character they should be and saying that they need not be any more powerful than core characters at all.  There is a logical dividing point there.If Jubliex can be CR19, then why are you stating that he may not be CR18?  If he can be CR18, then why not CR17?  Where does it stop?If you can say that being up to casting Wish is powerful enough, then I can say that being up to casting Limited Wish can be as well.  I don't believe that either of those statements really hold water within the expected mythology.  But, compared to the expected mythology, the first statement is so flawed that the difference to the second statement is negligible.You made the statement that they should be no less powerful than presented.  I'd really like to know WHY.  Can you present a justification for that statement which does not beg the question of why they are permitted to be sub-epic?</blockquote>

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