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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Razz" data-source="post: 2850911" data-attributes="member: 3014">Unholy crap blazing hellballs Batman!Dude, what gives with the WEAKER demon lords? They made it sounds like they had a decent inbetween non-epic and epic, and with rules to attach in order to increase them to epic? Now they're WEAKER than their 3.0 versions? Weaker than even the Dragon Magazine versions? What gives? What is WotC thinking?! I hear it all the time "We don't pway epic wevel games blah blah blah". Yes, that is understood, boo to you who can't enjoy the awesome, anime-like, coolness of an epic game. Booooring! You can have your CR 10 Demon Lords for your games simply by taking that CR 35 or 40 creature and DOWN GRADING IT. It's easier to weaken a creature than to make it stronger. I am not saying one cannot increase the HD by double or triple the amount, and I don't want to go in the direction of giving them divine ranks and placing Salient Divine abilities on them. What I am saying is giving them epic abilities like "One glare and all your innards spill out failing a Fortitude DC 40 and try to choke you to death on top of that" sort of abilities. Does anyone at WotC forget their epic monster creations from the Epic Level Handbook!? THOSE are more powerful than the demon lords, for some odd reason. And ~THAT's~ what my players, (at least my players) yearn to have epic duels or legendary campaigns with in the end when they finally retire at, I dunno, 28th or 30th level.Well, you non-epic players enjoy. I am quite sad to see that you're ruining the awesome legendary strength I want to place in my games. The molydeus CR 19 seems fine to me. I saw them as powerful, but not as powerful as balors. They were always second to them in 2E I believe, in power that is. What's with the reprints? The goristro? We have that back in Manual of the Planes along with the 3.5 Update Booklet. I hope that was the only reprint, though a reprint of the Mane, Shadow Demon, Rutterkin, Chasme, and Bar-lgura is sorely needed because those haven't been updated to 3.5 from Book of Vile Darkness.And yes, I agree with someone else who mentioned if you want to use weaker demon lords, then use their aspects. That's what they're there for.</blockquote>

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