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Message: <blockquote data-quote="GQuail" data-source="post: 2852582" data-attributes="member: 30709">If that's your campaign, then so be it.  But there's a difference between "in my campaign it should be like this" and what some people see to be saying (or at least implying) which is "Demon lords under this CR are /wrong/ and I can't believe these idiots didn't do them at my level!"I agree that the Demonomicon and the Fiendish Codex having differing stats for the same thing is irritating: it does seem to send mixed messages, and with that line about "weaker stats for off plane" being missing it's going to confuse some people.  Still, I know it now, as does everyone who reads this thread, so hopefully that'll solve that problem.  ;-)I can't fault the logic behinds Hordes of the Abyss' stat blocks.  There is a long tradition of archfiends being slayable, and referring to OOP campaign settings which had differing views doesn't change the fact that most people's D&D games probalby still treat them as they did in day 1: in theory killable, but high enough level that they're way out of the league of all but the greatest heroes  Featuring such core D&D beings at a level they can actually be used far outstrips the priority of "treating them with respect" or what have you.  Contrary to the extolations of epic level play by some people (Razz in paticular) and the fact I quite like playing higher level games myself (my first PDF purchase was the Immortal's Handbook bestiary, and I've been known to stat out the gods of my campaign world <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":-)" title="Smile    :-)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":-)" /> ) it's just a fact of life that most people don't play D&D at higher levels.  Saying how great it is to fight a CR 32 Orcus doesn't change the fact that most people here are never going to face off against anything CR32: but a CR21 becomes useable, even if it's an aspect/off-plane version/unpsionically charged/whatever version of the Amazing Unstopable Orcus!!1!!!!111!!one! some people feel must exist.  Also, contrary to Razz's statements on the topic, it's absoutely not easier to weaken a monster than to strengthen it: 3.X is full of ways to increase the power level of enemies, using HD, class levels or templates, bt trying to work out what to take off to make a CR 32 a CR 24 is no fun whatsoever.Following the mocking that stats in D&DG got from some of the same people in this thread, I think it's clear that official stats for things of this nature will never please everyone.  But I do think that aiming lower and providing hints for powering them up is a good idea: though without seeing the book I obviously can't say if they provide enough hints to my liking.  Still. I'm sure my players wouldn't mind if I decided that Pazuzu could use five levels of Rogue and the Paragon template....   <img src="http://www.enworld.org/forum/images/smilies/devious.png"  class="smilie" loading="lazy" alt=":]" title="Devious    :]" data-shortname=":]" /> Anyway, this all seems to ignore the fact that the monster stats are a minor part of the book.  I'm quite interested to see it when it comes out,  and even if I don't like thst ats, it's what, 20 pages out of the book?  20 pages in which there's still fluff and other stuff going on as well.  To throw the book out based on that as "ruining the awesome legendary strength I want to place in my games." seems more than a little melodromatic.</blockquote>

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