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Message: <blockquote data-quote="BOZ" data-source="post: 2853734" data-attributes="member: 1241">Posted on Dicefreaks in reaction to the new CRs of the demon lords:heheh.  <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />  just had to share that...I don't personally care much about what CRs the various demon lords are set at, though I do have to wonder why any would be considered less of a challenge than a lowly-by-comparison balor?  Even outside of its realm?  I thought they were just fine as they were and I don't understand the lowering.But, eh, like I said, that's not the part that bothers me about the CRs given in Joe's review.  I do like the explanation of, say, having these stat blocks as the minimum for the given lords, and upgradable using a special table in the book.  In fact, I say, genius.  The part that gets me is that we have intentionally alternate stat blocks between this new book, and previous (in some cases, very recent) sources.  Why do we need that?  Initially, I had reservations at all that lords featured in the Demonomicon articles even needed to have stat blocks in a new book already, but James Jacobs' assertions that all the iconic lords should be statted in the book brought me around.  Still... Why not have just the stat blocks in one place, instead of having two blocks that in different places that disagree with one another?  I can't see the logic in that.Still, in the end, I can live with whatever happens.  Like many others have said in this thread, it's not going to stop me from buying the book just because I don't agree with what was done and why.  <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />  If you want tougher demon lords, you always have the ToH1, and if you want 'em tougher than that, you have <a href="http://community.dicefreaks.com/index.php" target="_blank">Dicefreaks</a>.As for the Klurchir, folks need to keep one thing in mind.  When the Balor was first redesigned for 3.0 the MM, it had a measly 13-HD and was a CR 18 creature.  So yes, making a 20-HD, CR 25 critter makes sense, and would seem to be able to scare the piss out of a balor.  However, shortly after the printing of the Fiend Folio, we have the 3.5 MM - in which our good ol' Balor went up to 20 in both HD and CR.  Suddenly, the Klurchir as written doesn't seem so tough, at least to the bumped-up balor.  You have two choices - either keep the Klurchir as-is and lower its CR, or raise its stats to make the CR and description accurate.  Since the FC1 crew wasn't going to be working with the Klurchir, lowering the CR seemed like the right choice.As for the "all archfiends in 2E didn't have stats, except for Graz'zt and Pazzy, which doesn't fit in with anything else anyway" well... here's my take on that.  it's not that all archfiends were beyond stats.  The *gods* were beyond stats.  Yes, archfiends were considered Powers, but I'm fairly sure that I saw in the definition of the term "Powers" that not all Powers were actually gods.  In 2E, Demogorgon, Juiblex, Yeenoghu, Baphomet, and Kostchtchie became (at least until archdemons were reintroduced in BoVD) gods.  Thus, they did not have stats.  Who did have stats?  Graz'zt, and Pazzy (that nickname covers both versions of his name, heh), who were *never*, as I understand it, considered gods or even placed on the same level as gods.  You could counter that by saying Fraz-Urb’luu, Pale Night, Zuggtmoy, and the Abyssal Lords introduced in Planescape never got statted out, making Graz and Paz the deviations from the norm.  I say... the designers just never got around to giving them stats.  Perhaps they wanted to devote the space to other things.  Perhaps they figured Graz and Paz were enough.  Perhaps they thought some folks would balk at the idea of having any more Abyssal lords with game stats.  Or maybe, as some around here seem to think, the designers decided that having stats for Graz and Paz in the first place was a mistake they didn't want to repeat.  I don't know.  I wasn't working for TSR.  <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />  when I look at archdemons, I think of them on about the same tier of power as altraloths, archomentals, and slaad lords.  And all of those guys, plus Graz and Paz, did have game stats, in 2E.  now that Demo, Juib, Yeen, Baph, and Kost have been de-godded, they have stat blocks.  As far as I see it, all is right with the world again.Time for me to re-read this thread again, and find some other posts to make comments to.  <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" /></blockquote>

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