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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Mirtek" data-source="post: 2854708" data-attributes="member: 40810">Actually no, in 2e Orcus was a lesser god. As Tenebrous he was lesser in power than he had been as Orcus. I am bothered by the low stats for archfiends too. Yes, I think working fluff is more important than usefull crunch. If ordinary balors can grow up to 60 HD, then the so called "Prince of Demons" has to be able to cow such a 60 HD balor into submission or he won't be holding his title for long.While that is a valid point, where is this supposed to end? Why should a player ever be forced to play something as uncool as a cleric instead of just being the deity himself? If Demogorgon can't be more than CR 27, what about the 20th level fighter that wants to slay the god of war? Shouldn't the god of war be made CR 27 too?It's only really starts to get ugly if these stats simply can not match with the place these entities are supposed to hold. In Champions of Ruin they made none of the Elder Eternal Evils of Toril higher than CR 2X (IIRC). That can work, but in this case it requires that anything else on this world is below them in power (with the PC as grand heroes of the world being the execption and the ones to finally slay the EEEs). But if you can't turn a rock on this world without finding a level CR 35 NPC underneath, it just get's laughable to see this "doom of the world" creaturesThat's the point: If Demogorgon is not too weak, than many other creatures are just too strongAs far as I have understood the earlier posts, the line that these stats only represent them outside their homereals has, for whatever reasons, not appeared in this book. So these are the stats for their true selfs.And "they didn't write these are the stats of their true selfs, so these aren't the stats for their true selfs" is no argument.The PHB didn't write "a first level fighter can not fly at a speed of 60 feet per round and with perfect maneuverability". So does this mean that my first level fighter actually can fly at a speed of 60 feet per round and with perfect maneuverability?  <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f61b.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":p" title="Stick out tongue    :p"  data-smilie="7"data-shortname=":p" /></blockquote>

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