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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Ripzerai" data-source="post: 2855875" data-attributes="member: 38324">Unfortunately, they didn't. Juiblex is CR 19, Baphomet is CR 20, and Yeenoghu is CR 20, so two of them are at about the same threat level as a balor and one of them is less threatening.Granted, CR isn't an absolute measure of who can defeat whom, but from what we know about their raw CR it looks like at least three unique fiends, rulers of vast territories in the Abyss, are at about the same level as the rank-and-file demons.No, it's apparently been written for people whose campaigns are more about having wild, nonsensical fun than being self-consistent. And that's fine - that's a valid approach. But when people point out that there's dissonance there, that the Abyss as written doesn't really make sense now, they're not wrong. The product seems to be aimed at the subset of people who not only stop their campaigns at 20th level, but who nonetheless think their PCs ought to be able to take on threats that, in a campaign where logic was an issue, they would have no chance against.I am not in any way denigrating the beer-and-prezels crowd. I'm well aware that it's a game and not necessarily "serious" epic fantasy. But the point that this is, indeed, not consistent with a serious game is still valid.A mortal king keeps his powerful knights in line because they respect his right to rule, or know that the king's other followers respect the king's right to rule more than they do that of the knights. Demons are, by definition, chaotic creatures who care nothing for the rule of law. A CR 23 Demogorgon, sharing a layer with non-unique balors and so forth (and what happened to Demogorgon's advanced marilith bodyguards, or Severik the balor fighter 10?) isn't a ruler anymore; he's a mascot at best. The other demons keep him around because they think he's lucky - as long as his luck holds out. Or they respect him because he's old and wise and reminds them of their rich history. They come to him when they have problems, and if he gives them good advice they say, "Thank you, great lord. Once again, you have shown why we don't bother to kill you." But he doesn't rule. If he has an off day and gives bad advice, they kill him. They're a plane full of homocidal megalomaniacs prone to childish fits of rage, what do you expect? There's only one of him, and he's surrounded by enemies - even his closest allies are sharks waiting for a sign of weakness. What's the worst that can happen if he dies? Anarchy? They're demons; anarchy only stimulates them. I can see some Abyssal lords - I'm thinking mainly of Graz'zt - keeping their troops in line through sheer charisma and intellect, but the traditional way differences are settled in the Abyss is through bullying and intimidation. The Abyss is a Darwinian nightmare realm, and survival of the fittest is the rule its denizens adhere to the most.</blockquote>

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