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<blockquote data-quote="gizmo33" data-source="post: 2863226" data-attributes="member: 30001">Why not any 20th level party?&nbsp; Who keeps the demon lords from taking over the Prime?What setup though?&nbsp; There's too much left open to question here.&nbsp; Sure, if your &quot;end boss encounter&quot; is a 30x30 room in a dungeon, then the demon lord is in trouble.&nbsp; If the party has to slog it's way through dozens of EL 20 encounters, then it's not a sure thing at all (especially if the demon lord just doesn't sit there going &quot;mwahaha&quot; waiting for the PCs to arrive).&nbsp; There could be some reason, after all, why the demon lord lives in the Abyss and not on the Prime.&nbsp; That reason could be all those other EL 20 encounters of his servants.&nbsp; And even outside of the Abyss, the demon lord would be vulnerable only to fairly unlikely alliances of ultra-high level adventurers.Yes, in a 30x30 room on the Prime Material plane.&nbsp; But IMO there are too many variables (and there should be many) if you're designing their abyssal lair (an interesting one).&nbsp; The demon lords could be designed so that a stalemate exists - both sides supreme on their home turf.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="gizmo33, post: 2863226, member: 30001"] Why not any 20th level party? Who keeps the demon lords from taking over the Prime? What setup though? There's too much left open to question here. Sure, if your "end boss encounter" is a 30x30 room in a dungeon, then the demon lord is in trouble. If the party has to slog it's way through dozens of EL 20 encounters, then it's not a sure thing at all (especially if the demon lord just doesn't sit there going "mwahaha" waiting for the PCs to arrive). There could be some reason, after all, why the demon lord lives in the Abyss and not on the Prime. That reason could be all those other EL 20 encounters of his servants. And even outside of the Abyss, the demon lord would be vulnerable only to fairly unlikely alliances of ultra-high level adventurers. Yes, in a 30x30 room on the Prime Material plane. But IMO there are too many variables (and there should be many) if you're designing their abyssal lair (an interesting one). The demon lords could be designed so that a stalemate exists - both sides supreme on their home turf. [/QUOTE]

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