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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Upper_Krust" data-source="post: 2864863" data-attributes="member: 326">Hey James! <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />I'm still looking forward to the book, despite not really liking the direction things have went (with regards the Demon Lords). I don't take issue with the stats themselves (I know you are simply pandering to the mass market). However, although I understand the reasoning behind such changes, I totally disagree with them. In my eyes they are:1. Unnecessary (since I'll explain below how to do detail such beings properly).2. Unwarranted (since demons in the Monster Manual now run the gamut of CR's 1-20, you have non-epic campaigns already catered for).3. Disrespectful (to both epic gamers and the actual 'spirit' of the monsters themselves).4. Redundant (You now have the Demon Lords representing the same challenges as Marilith and Balors).5. Nonsensical (no matter what way you spin it, theres no way you can use those stats to logically explain their positions and longevity).So consider this an argument, not against the book itself, but on your reasons for doing Demon Lords the way you did. The first question being why? If a Balor is already CR 20 whats the big whoop-de-doo of having Demon Lords 'x', 'y' and 'z' at CR 19, 20 and 21? If anything surely its anti-climatic, it cheapens the Demon Lords and it doesn't make any sense whatsoever that such beings could be commanding thousands if not millions of demons or ruling their layers for more than a few weeks before a wandering Balor/Pit Fiend/non-epic PC Party/or Elminster kills and/or supplants one of them.Okay, but why should these beings be CR 20-21? Do 14th-level PC groups not have enough monsters to fight between the CR 6-22 range that you felt compelled to dumb such beings down. Do Monster Manuals I, II, III and the Fiend Folio starve groups of these levels, no of course not.Using your 'logic', you could bring in a CR 22 Tiamat with a 'yeah but shes more useful to the average campaign this way'. Despite the fact that she is supposed to represent the queen of evil dragonkind.Just because something is more useful to more people at a lower CR doesn't mean everything should be de-powered to fit within those parameters. Its just a lame excuse. At about CR 21-30 (Lords), 31-40 (Princes) and 41-60 (Monarchs).Avatars come in at about half this CR 10-15/16-20/21-30. This way you have the "I want them to be useful for non-epic gamers to use as BBEG's" crowd sorted.Aspects come in at about half Avatar power. CR 5-7/8-10/11-15. This way even lower level parties can get a taste of fighting Orcus.Worst case scenario this method adds 1 extra page per Demon Lord entry. See above. By that stage you will be beyond the Demon Princes and likely battling some cosmic entities.Just like you don't say, what happens to all the Owlbears when your PCs are 20th-level...nothing happens to them - they are still (CR 4) owlbears. You don't panic and scribble over the owlbear entry in the Monster Manual. You simply use monsters with a more appropriate CR for your current group. I disagree. Its about respecting the relative power of the Demon Lords/Princes and making their positions believable.The HotA Demogorgon may be afraid to walk the 'streets' of Abysm at night for fear of being mugged by a gang of drunken Nalfeshnee.  I have no qualms with everyone having their own preference. I do have qualms with you trying to justify your decisions. How can CR 19 Juiblex be millenia old and command thousands if not millions of demons!? 'It' can't - its as simple as that. I see it more to do with having the power of the demon lords make sense than making them more powerful for the sake of it.The HotA Demon Lords, don't make a heck of a lot of sense to me (and judging by this boards reaction - quite a few other people too).I don't think its good enough, and I can't agree there is a 'nice range' when they all pretty much cover the same CR ground. ...which corresponds to roughly how powerful such beings are. So that when we contrast a Balor to Juiblex we ponder why the weaker one is a planar ruler and why he/she/it has existed for thousands of years without being killed by a wandering Balor, party of 20th-level Heroes, Elminster, a dragon (almost any will do), or a random encounter in the Abyss, etc.Certainly after 3.5 they were.Theres an incongruity in the statement that the 3.0 demons needed to be made tougher yet the 3.0 Demon Lords needed to be downgraded. Ironically the 3.0 demons actually now make more sense when juxtaposed with the HotA Demon Lords.Now you have a situation where demons like the Balor, Marilith and Klurichir are pretty much filling the same role as Orcus, Juiblex and Kostchtchie, which, to me is just a wasted opportunity.I have enjoyed all the Demonomicon articles to date, and found them interesting, so don't see my position as an indictment of your writing, however when it comes to your design of the demon lords I can't help but be disappointed.</blockquote>

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