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Message: <blockquote data-quote="BryonD" data-source="post: 2865878" data-attributes="member: 957">And I'm completely with you here.But, on the other hand, I can have Jubilex in my own notes in minutes WITHOUT buying WotC's book.  So that kinda cancel's out of the conversation on the merits of this product.  It is not required that complaints about the book translate to damage to my game.I simply disagree that it can meet the standards of versimiltude.  Could a CR23 demon lord aquire power over many CR20+ demons?  Certainly.  Could one maintain such a position for years, much less centuries or eons?  I don't buy it.  And they are asking me to buy this for not one but for ALL the demon lords.  All this without the 60HD balor angle.  Or even just 25HD balors.  And I still don't see any evidence that this in truth serves as many people as practical. Suggestions for advancing balors into demon lords would serve everyone who wants low CR demon lords and allow for supporting the higher power ideas of them at the same time.  Serving everyone the book currently serves PLUS other who want more seems to be a better capture of "as many people as practical" to me.  The way they have done it the ~CR20 crowd has two options and the higher level people have zero official options.And I also think our ability to advance them is at least partly a red herring.  The official power level has been adjusted.  Thus, the expectation of future support is pretty well crushed.  An no, I'm not claiming any right to that support.  But I consider reasonable to express complaint when WotC goes out of their way to re-write not just canon but fundamental mythology expectations inherent to the game, and does so in such a way as to actively exclude a portion the fan base.Does a Level 20 Thrall of Jubilex even really make sense anymore?  Without bending over backward to rationalize it?  Do you kill Jubilex and then fight his "thrall" as the climactic encounter????  <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f615.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":confused:" title="Confused    :confused:"  data-smilie="5"data-shortname=":confused:" />   Or is Jubilex the downhill coast once you're past the "thrall"?   <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f615.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":confused:" title="Confused    :confused:"  data-smilie="5"data-shortname=":confused:" />   And, honestly, I also think the target audience they are servicing here is, far and away, less likely to care.  The people who play higher level are vastly more likely to use demon lords than the people who play lower level.  I'm certain that there is some small fraction that is right in the zone for this.  But the arguement against supporting the minority over the majority has already been made by those favoring this approach.  Of the people who actually use demon lords, I feel quite confident that the clear majority would prefer more powerful demon lords.I don't think they should change the mechanics of meteor swarm to satisfy the people who play up to L12 if the people playing L20 like it as is.  I don't think they should nerf demon lords to satisfy people who don't play anti-demon lords games if the people who do play them like it as is.  (Particularly when there are already L20 appropriate demons.)</blockquote>

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