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Message: <blockquote data-quote="StreamOfTheSky" data-source="post: 5773748" data-attributes="member: 35909">Do you have an idea of what skills you would actually want to have maxed?  How many skill points do you figure you'll need, roughly?  Obviously no one short of a super min-maxed wizard is going to compete with Rogue for skill point total.I had the following array of ability scores in mind, using 25 point buy.  I added racial at the very end because I found Ophiduan to be the ideal race, but it's a 3rd party psionic race, and while it's on the d20pfsrd, most DMs might not allow it, hence the "plan B" Undine from Bestiary II.  Numbers in () are after magical gear.  So I figured on Int 22 by level 20 w/ a +6 item.  So 210 skill points.  And I maintain that a straight Rogue 20 would not be able to afford an int as high as that w/o severely crippling his combat capability.  I'd imagine a Rogue 20 that wants to be good in combat could muster Int 14 and a +4 item for Int 18, but that's just a guess.[sblock]Str 8, Dex 15, Con 12, Int 16, Wis 16, Cha 8 (initial, pre-race 25 PB)Str 8, Dex 16 (22), Con 12 (16), Int 16 (22), Wis 20 (26), Cha 8 (level 20, pre-race)Undine: Str 6, Dex 18 (24), Con 12 (16), Int 16 (22), Wis 22 (28), Cha 8 (level 20, final)Ophiduan: Str 8, Dex 18 (24), Con 12 (16), Int 16 (22), Wis 22 (28), Cha 6 (level 20, final)[/sblock]In D&D, magic gear is essential.  Just look at the wealth by level chart sometime.  Do you really think you could just forfeit all those thousands of gp in wealth and come out nearly as strong?  It's not just falling behind with the party, the CR system of the monsters expects you to have roughly that level of wealth in gear.  If it bothers you a lot, I suggest sticking with only things that are all day, permanent buffs, like the stat and AC increases.  Since they're continuously working, they remain in the background and you don't even have to think about them.  That said, IMHO by higher levels every melee character should have Winged Boots or some other means of flight, there's quite a lot of foes that can make you a spectator or even a helpless victim if you lack it.Thanks, but like any monk, he actually relies a lot on magic: lots of ability scores to boost; mage armor; buff spell to enhance his unarmed strike because the amulet of mighty fists is insanely overpriced; etc...  It's unavoidable, though my build certainly holds up better than a normal monk without the gear.Cool!  As I said, it was just the first thing that crossed my mind for what you were asking for, a weak looking, unassuming skillful guy that doesn't really use magic at all but is still good in a fight.  Feel free to go different routes.  I do think Unarmed Fighter 1 followed by two levels of Master of Many Styles Monk is a solid starting point to go in different directions from.  Whether it's Rogue, Ranger, Horizon Walker, or something else.I know you didn't want magic, but maybe consider <a href="http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/bard/archetypes/paizo---bard-archetypes/archaeologist" target="_blank">Archaeologist</a> Bard.  It still has the casting, but instead of the very prominent and hard to re-fluff performance, they get a personal only "luck" ability that is probably more your style.  They're sort of like rogues without the sneak attack.  I don't think it's as good as Bard IF you were doing a 20 level build.  But it's pretty good for the first few levels (I'd get out by 2, 4, or 6) if you wanted to combine it with some other multiclassing and/or as a lead  in to a prestige class.If you can just get over the small amount of spellcasting you'd have.</blockquote>

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