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Message: <blockquote data-quote="AbdulAlhazred" data-source="post: 8112599" data-attributes="member: 82106">In which games is it the case where the arbitration of the rules in unclear and inconsistent, yet this sort of pattern of play exists? Because IME games which play in this 'scene framing' kind of pattern INVARIABLY provide a universalized set of mechanics! I mean, I'm sure someone can point out a game which doesn't, but is this because it is a good idea or because that game is flawed in that respect? When you talk about GM arbitration you are talking about decisions made IN NARRATIVE TERMS, not in terms of the mechanics of the rules. I don't contend that all games allocate narrative authority to players, or that they must do so in order to qualify as 'properly designed'. How, and by whom, narrative decisions are made is quite varied in this type of game. It may be, often is, entirely the GM's purview, but it may also be entirely the player's purview. Either way, or in between, the mechanics of the game provide the process by which this happens, and often define the attributes of PCs, etc. Again, look at Dungeon World, since it thematically addresses the same landscape as D&D. The rules are entirely comprehensive, and quite simple. Narrative authority largely rests with the GMs hard and soft move making function. However, a number of the moves shift some of this explicitly to the players, like 'Spout Lore', which lets a player 'say stuff' about some game element (the GM and the dice have some say in exactly what it means). DW is actually pretty strongly in the "GM directs the narrative", but obviously the mere fact that players can make moves with clear narrative connotations gives them some leverage (though obviously almost all RPGs in use today do that).Most FATE games (another system which has, generally, a pretty universal set of mechanics) provide for players to invoke attributes of their character in order to introduce elements into a scene. These are usually games which more evenly share story between all participants. There are even some in which only the players make up the story (There's an example of such a game I believe in one of the more recent FATE books, though I haven't really looked at it in a few years). Notice how 4e did both of these things, making the rules fairly universal, AND providing for SCs, or even just general play, where the DM is intended to "say yes." It also makes clear that the game is ABOUT these decision points ("skip to the exciting parts").</blockquote>

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