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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Ovinomancer" data-source="post: 8114394" data-attributes="member: 16814">There is similar language in many D&D editions.  There's been a long tradition of offering this in D&D while not actually reinforcing it through tech or principles of play.  That it's in the 4e DMGs is not indicative of anything more than continuing tradition.Also, reference to the DMG2 is an interesting thing -- the DMG2 is not the first point of entry into the game, and if such an important way to play is delayed to past the initial entry point, is that terribly indicative of intent of play?  Not that the DMG2 didn't provide a bit more top cover for non-trad approaches to play, it does, but that it still isn't explicit at that point and still provides play procedures that contradict narrative play (pre-building skill challenges for specific goals and selecting applicable skills within that challenge) cuts against your point here that it provides such direction.Yes, as I said above, if you're already familiar with these play principles the skill challenge framework offers quite a lot of opportunity.  If you are not, there's nothing in those descriptions that actually points you in the right direction, largely because it's right beside the direction to pre-build skill challenges as part of traditional adventure design.  This includes setting the goal/entry/framing of the challenge ahead of play and also selecting the primary skills to be used, which presupposes applicable action declarations.  That's right in there as well, and are the parts that I refer to when I say that they must be ignored to achieve a more narrative use of skill challenges.Your final point is an interesting one, because it cuts against as well as for.  If the structure of the skill challenge is used, then a 'knock-down solution' is not an exit to the challenge as the rules present.  Both approaches must know when to abandon the challenge framework if the fiction dictates -- it's not just traditional approaches that have this issue.  That those familiar with narrative play probably already know this principle doesn't mean that the skill challenge, as presented, doesn't provide this guidance to either side.  You're mistaking your experience with other techniques and principles as part of the skill challenge and creating a problem for traditional approaches that you're solving not with the skill challenge framework, but outside awareness and experience.  A traditional GM could also learn this lesson in a different way and similarly have no problems with skill challenges, just like an experienced narrative play GM.  The actual skill challenge rules, and the guidance for those rules, do not solve this problem for either side -- it's an outside solution for both.  If I had picked up on fiction first (which I agree is the best use of the SC structure) from the text without prior experience, then the skill challenge framework would pose a similar problem for me with a 'knock-down solution.'  I'd have to realize I need to step out of the process and abandon it to close the scene appropriately.</blockquote>

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