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"Hot" take: Aesthetically-pleasing rules are highly overvalued
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<blockquote data-quote="pemerton" data-source="post: 8117063" data-attributes="member: 42582"><p>The DCs come of a DC-by-level chart, with fairly precise guidance about which column to pick from. The players initiate skill use, because they are the ones who declare actions: see eg DMG pp 74-75:</p><p></p><p style="margin-left: 20px">Sometimes, a player tells you, “I want to make a Diplomacy check to convince the duke that helping us is in his best interest.” That’s great—the player has told you what she’s doing and what skill she’s using to do it. Other times, a player will say, “I want to make a Diplomacy check.” In such a case, prompt the player to give more information about how the character is using that skill. Sometimes, characters do the opposite: “I want to scare the duke into helping us.” It’s up to you, then, to decide which skill the character is using and call for the appropriate check. . . .</p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px">In skill challenges, players will come up with uses for skills that you didn’t expect to play a role. Try not to say no. . . . If a player asks, “Can I use Diplomacy?” you should ask what exactly the character might be doing to help the party survive in the uninhabited sandy wastes by using that skill.</p><p></p><p>But the fundamental difference from B/X or 5e is as [USER=16586]@Campbell[/USER] has described: the skill challenge framework is a binding resolution framework that generates consequences on the way through and yields finality of outcome.</p><p></p><p></p><p>In Prince Valiant there is a general system for simple resolution, and a general system for complex resolution if that is what is desired/appropriate (margin of failure is deducted from the pool - whoever reaches zero in their pool loses). Any skill can oppose any other, because of the uniform framework.</p><p></p><p>As I posted not far above, B/x and even moreso AD&D don't bear comparison in this respect. In B/X, for instance, how do I resolve a fighter's attempt to stage an ambush by hiding? How does that interact with the thief's Hide in Shadows ability? How does Move Silently relate to the surprise rules? What about the rules for evasion of pursuit? Even in Moldvay's example of "there's always a chance", the rules for falling damage are disregarded. When is that meant to happen? Can a 1st level player make the same appeal to a small chance of stabbing an ogre in the vitals and so winning the fight, without having to engage the to hit and damage rules?</p><p></p><p>5e isn't quite as lacking in integration of its systems as B/X or AD&D, but it has similar issues. In a running race, for instance, what benefit does a fighter get if his/her player is prepared to expend a use of Action Surge? What happens if one character wants to woo another by singing a song - is it Performance check vs Wisdom save?</p><p></p><p>Etc.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="pemerton, post: 8117063, member: 42582"] The DCs come of a DC-by-level chart, with fairly precise guidance about which column to pick from. The players initiate skill use, because they are the ones who declare actions: see eg DMG pp 74-75: [indent]Sometimes, a player tells you, “I want to make a Diplomacy check to convince the duke that helping us is in his best interest.” That’s great—the player has told you what she’s doing and what skill she’s using to do it. Other times, a player will say, “I want to make a Diplomacy check.” In such a case, prompt the player to give more information about how the character is using that skill. Sometimes, characters do the opposite: “I want to scare the duke into helping us.” It’s up to you, then, to decide which skill the character is using and call for the appropriate check. . . . In skill challenges, players will come up with uses for skills that you didn’t expect to play a role. Try not to say no. . . . If a player asks, “Can I use Diplomacy?” you should ask what exactly the character might be doing to help the party survive in the uninhabited sandy wastes by using that skill.[/indent] But the fundamental difference from B/X or 5e is as [USER=16586]@Campbell[/USER] has described: the skill challenge framework is a binding resolution framework that generates consequences on the way through and yields finality of outcome. In Prince Valiant there is a general system for simple resolution, and a general system for complex resolution if that is what is desired/appropriate (margin of failure is deducted from the pool - whoever reaches zero in their pool loses). Any skill can oppose any other, because of the uniform framework. As I posted not far above, B/x and even moreso AD&D don't bear comparison in this respect. In B/X, for instance, how do I resolve a fighter's attempt to stage an ambush by hiding? How does that interact with the thief's Hide in Shadows ability? How does Move Silently relate to the surprise rules? What about the rules for evasion of pursuit? Even in Moldvay's example of "there's always a chance", the rules for falling damage are disregarded. When is that meant to happen? Can a 1st level player make the same appeal to a small chance of stabbing an ogre in the vitals and so winning the fight, without having to engage the to hit and damage rules? 5e isn't quite as lacking in integration of its systems as B/X or AD&D, but it has similar issues. In a running race, for instance, what benefit does a fighter get if his/her player is prepared to expend a use of Action Surge? What happens if one character wants to woo another by singing a song - is it Performance check vs Wisdom save? Etc. [/QUOTE]
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